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0:00:02.1 Wayne Brown: Hello, I’m Wayne Brown, and welcome to The ET Project. We’re delighted to be delivering this podcast for executive talent all over the world who we’re affectionately referring to as Team ET. In today’s episode, we have a very special guest, particularly for those that practice coaching and enjoy reading books on the topics of leadership and coaching and generally improving your skills in these arenas. Our guest today is Dr. Marcia Reynolds. Marcia who is a master certified coach, and passionate about helping coaches and leaders make every conversation a meaningful experience. In addition to coaching leaders in multi-national companies and government agencies, she’s provided coaching and coach training in 43 countries. She’s also worked with many companies to establish coaching cultures, crucial in our world of accelerated and unprecedented change.

0:01:02.6 WB: Marcia was the fifth International Coaching Federation president and inducted into the ICF’s circle of distinction for her contributions to the global coaching community. Global gurus names her as the number four coach in the world. She’s the creator of the renowned WBECS program, Breakthrough Coaching, and has just launched a new self-study version of the program. Excerpts from Marcia’s book, “Outsmart your Brain”, “The Discomfort Zone” and “Wander Woman” have appeared in business and psychological publications worldwide.

0:01:39.6 WB: Her latest international bestseller, “Coach The Person, Not The Problem: A Guide to Using Reflective Inquiry” is in its seventh printing and translated into four languages. Besides hiking, Marcia’s favorite pass time is learning. She holds a doctorate in organizational psychology and two master’s degrees in learning psychology and communications. So with that, and in preparation for our 30-minute episode, please remove any distractions, make yourself comfortable and be ready to capture the wealth of insights that we know you’re going to get as you listen to Dr. Marcia Reynolds and I discuss the topic of conversation with a master coach about leadership, we believe you are going to greatly enjoy.

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0:02:28.3 Intro Speaker: Welcome to the ET Project, a podcast for those executive talents determined to release their true potential and create an impact. Join our veteran coach and mentor, Wayne Brown, as we unpack an exciting future together.

0:02:45.6 WB: Alright, Team ET, we have a very special guest joining us today. I’m extremely excited and humbled to be able to introduce Dr. Marcia Reynolds, one of my long-time idols, I have to say. So welcome, Marcia, to the ET Project. It’s great to have you on the show.

0:03:08.3 Dr. Marcia Reynolds: Thank you. Thanks for asking me to be here.

0:03:10.9 WB: It’s definitely my pleasure. So look, we have a little bit of a ritual where we normally kick off by asking if you have any fun facts on the top of your mind that you would share with our listeners.

0:03:25.0 DR: Well, I know you’re gonna ask me about my career path. But what a lot of people don’t know is my very first job, I was… My first master’s degree was broadcasting. So I was hired by a psychiatric hospital as the AV coordinator to push around the TVs and the film projectors and to make sure everybody had all of their AV equipment. And they always said they weren’t technical, so I had to put everything together and plug everything in for them. So I also went and joined a gym so I could improve my upper body strength because all the equipment was really big and heavy back then. [laughter] But it was for a training department, and that’s how I ended up in training.

0:04:21.3 WB: Well, that saves a question for later, so thank you for that. Interesting. It’s amazing how our careers transgress over the years. When we first start we seldom end up where we finish. Great, thank you for sharing that. Anything around you or in the world today that’s exciting you?

0:04:44.5 DR: There’s so much in the world that’s scary. But I think what’s exciting is how many people are coming together to create community and help us to see beyond the scary. So it’s not just to soften our feelings, but to ignite hope and possibilities. And I get more and more requests for, how can you get people to see what joy and light we can bring into our world? So I think it’s great how we unite to help each other get through difficult times.

0:05:28.3 WB: Right. And very important at the moment, of course, with so much uncertainty around us. Okay, so that’s somewhat of a nice lead in, I guess, to the question I like to ask around career. So our listener base are executive talents, and with your background, I’m sure there are many stories over your career that would be of interest to them. Is there anything that jumps out to your top of mind that might be of interest?

0:06:04.4 DR: It’s interesting because I think even with my first masters, I was always looking at how can I use this to help people get through difficult times? So even with the broadcasting, I was looking at using video as a communication tool to help people broaden their perspective. So when I got in the training department, and then she ended up dumping… My first training assignment was to do the management training. [laughter] That’s why I went back and got a second degree so I could understand how to design training. But it got me very curious about learning and what really changes people’s minds and the original management training… And still a lot of it is, how do you tell people what to do? How do you give them feedback? How do you direct them? When I found coaching, I found, no, it’s not about what you say, it’s how you listen and who you are to them and that they trust you and that you can explore together. So there was a real shift in, who are we as leaders? And what can we do that can inspire people to want to grow? Which is the essential piece. So it’s been an interesting journey and in learning and discovering what changes people, honestly, and over time and applying that to what I share with other people.

0:07:47.2 WB: You have such a broad spectrum of coverage across the world. I think in your bio, you talk about 43 different countries that you have coached leaders and supported leaders and it’s quite remarkable. One of the classes, I believe, that you share with leaders is leader as a coach, and you’re also helping organizations in different countries as a member of faculty. I’m wondering with all that exposure, what are some of the biggest challenges that you’re seeing or you’re hearing about from the leaders around the whole topic of introducing coaching into their organizations.

0:08:33.6 DR: Yeah. Actually in my book, “The Discomfort Zone,” I have a whole chapter on the five myths that leaders rely on to not coach. And the number one is they say, “I don’t have time.” And the question always is, “Okay, so you’re telling me that you would rather spend your time having them constantly come to you and ask you for your opinion, your advice and how you see things, ’cause you’ve not developed their own minds to do that? That you would rather do that, than take a little bit more time upfront to help them to see what they can do on their own.” And so you’re developing their minds, you’re just… And activating their minds, not pacifying their minds. And so the myth of, I don’t have time… And the better you get at coaching, the quicker it is. Most of my coaching demonstrations last, what, 15 minutes. And the person has a breakthrough and knows what to do. So I don’t need an hour or two hours. And I see that more of, I don’t have time to develop the skill to be able to do this, not, I don’t have time to sit with them and coach them.

0:09:53.8 DR: So I think the time is the biggest issue. And it does take a change in mindset and skills, and there’s always an awkwardness and a period of where “I’m uncomfortable doing this until I know how to do it.” And humans by nature don’t like to be uncomfortable, so they avoid the learning by using the excuses.

0:10:26.2 WB: Yeah, very interesting. So if you were to give them some support as the coach, what would you recommend to them to make that step?

0:10:39.8 DR: Well, sometimes it’s just as easy as turning it around. When somebody comes to them and says, “I don’t know what to do, what do you think?” [chuckle] Which again is another excuse, leaders say, “Oh but they’re always asking me, and so why don’t I just give it to them?” But can you just easily turn around and say, “You know, I know you have a lot of experience with this, I’d like to hear your perspective first. What have you been considering you might do?” Because generally it’s not that they don’t know what to do, they’re afraid to take the risk of what they know what to do. So you can just easily turn it around and say, “I’d just like to hear what you’ve been thinking about.” And let them share, “Well, you know, I think maybe this, maybe that,” and help them look at what could happen if you tried this. Because again, you’re activating their mind and next time they’ll do it on their own and they won’t come in your office and ask you for, “I don’t know what to do, what’s your idea?”

0:11:39.0 WB: Right, right. You’ve written a number of books throughout your career and your journey. I think roughly four books since 2010, would that be correct?

0:11:52.0 DR: Well, yeah, and counting that one of them was a second edition. [chuckle]

0:11:56.1 WB: Oh okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. That’s the “How to Outsmart Your Brain.”

0:12:00.4 DR: “How To Outsmart Your Brain.”

0:12:02.1 WB: All right. At least four by my count. [laughter] I stand corrected if I’m wrong. I noticed that there’s a number of books also in the prior decade, and as you said, “How To Outsmart Your Brain” I think you probably have three editions now, or something like that. The question that resonates with me a lot is, what are you hoping to achieve when you first set out to write a book? Do you have any specific objectives that triggers you and sets the chain of thought off, or is it more randomly on that?

0:12:44.0 DR: No, generally, after I write a book, I say, “Okay, I’m done, I’m not gonna write another book.” [laughter] But then I see a great need.

0:12:52.7 WB: Right.

0:12:53.0 DR: I see a great need. So I feel like I’m filling a gap that’s needed out in the world that… Even with coaching, people are starting to get into bad habits. And some of the schools are not teaching in a way that gives them freedom in their conversations. And so I’m filling a need. And the first book, 2010, of the four that you’re looking at, was actually based on my doctoral dissertation for high-achieving women in the workplace. Because all the books at that time and research were on, that women were passive and didn’t know how to speak up, and I was like, “That’s not my clients.” Or they don’t know how to say no, and I’m like, “My clients don’t say no because they think that they’re the only ones that can do it right.” And what about smart, strong women in the workplace? So I did the research, I wrote the book, and the book still gets comments from women leaders around the world like, “Thank you for writing something for me, I thought something was wrong with me.” [laughter]

0:14:05.5 WB: Right. Good idea.

0:14:06.9 DR: So when I see a need, I wanna fill it with what I’ve learned to give people a better chance to master what they’re doing.

0:14:18.0 WB: Understood. In many of the books, at least of the ones that I’ve looked at, and I haven’t… And the one you were talking about is… How do I pronounce it? Is it “Wander Woman?” Or Wander…

0:14:28.5 DR: Wander.

[laughter]

0:14:30.0 WB: The Wander…

0:14:30.3 DR: Because it’s an archetype. We tend to wander… When we’ve had enough, we move on to something else. And at the time, I found women actually changed jobs more frequently than men.

0:14:42.2 WB: Right.

0:14:43.2 DR: And they kept saying, “Oh, ’cause they wanna support their families.” It’s like, “No, they felt that they were not getting enough challenges and they wanted to be challenged and learn more, so they moved on to somewhere else.” So it’s “Wander Woman”.

0:14:57.0 WB: Wander. And I have to admit, it’s probably my bias that stopped me from reading. What do I wanna read a women’s book for? All right. So… [laughter]

0:15:05.0 DR: But it’s interesting, ’cause I have a lot of men who have said, “Thank you for helping me understand the women that work for me, but also help… Thank you for helping me understand my wife and my kids and my daughters.” [laughter] So…

0:15:19.8 WB: I’ll definitely make the effort to go out and read it. The other three books, “The Discomfort Zone,” “How to Outsmart Your Brain” and “Coach the Person, Not the Problem.” And we’ll talk more on “Coach the Person, Not the Problem” in a moment. In all of those books, there’s a discussion around your emotion and coping with emotions. And I’m just wondering, is there an emotion that you’ve identified when you’re writing a book that you have to cope with to help you see the journey through when you’re writing?

0:15:54.0 DR: Yeah.

[laughter]

0:15:55.7 DR: How interesting. Well, I know what… Something I experienced, that everyone I know that’s written a book is at some point in your writing, at least after you’re halfway through, you’re sitting in there going, “Who’s gonna read this?” [laughter] It’s like, “It’s already out in the world, nobody’s gonna read this book. And I’m giving away all this time, when I could be outside and enjoying myself, and I’m sitting here.” So there’s a little bit of frustration and fear. Now, that goes on. And how many times people, as they get toward the end of the book, it’s like, “Well, now I have to put it out in the public, and put it out for their approval. [laughter] And how many bad reviews am I gonna get?” So the doubt as well. It’s like in anything that we move in and trying to accomplish, “How can I stay positive that this is going to have a good outcome?” So I come back to always my purpose, that I’m doing this not for me, but for them. I’m not doing this to be famous. It’s great that I’ve created this visibility out in the world, but I’m doing this ’cause I really wanna make a difference, I wanna be helpful. I want us all to elevate our consciousness. And leaders have an important space to do that. And so when I come back to my mission, my purpose, I stay with it, I stay consistent.

0:17:39.0 WB: Right.

0:17:40.0 DR: Yeah.

0:17:40.2 WB: Very nice. Very nice. I’m gonna take a little bit of a side step here now, and just ask you a stray question, if I can frame it that way. If you could gift any leader one thing that would help them prepare for the future?

0:18:00.5 DR: I’m actually creating a Leader as Coach Program right now for a very large, well-known global company. And they said, “Can you incorporate some information about the current CEO of Microsoft?” And his greatest quote is, “Don’t be a know it all, be a learn it all.” And I’m like, “I love that.” That, if you could go into every conversation with curiosity, saying, “I don’t know. I don’t know what this person needs. I don’t know what’s gonna happen in this conversation.” And just use beginner’s mind and be curious of what’s gonna happen today. I think that’s the greatest skill that leaders can develop, is that… And emotion, ’cause curiosity is an emotion. So it’s not just an open mind, it’s a total openness to what we can discover together, right now.

0:19:05.1 WB: Right. Beautiful. That’s a nice segue, in some regards, because the next question I intend to ask is about reflective inquiry, which is really very much about what your latest, or your last book is about; “Coach the Person, Not the Problem.” I’ve looked at your agenda for the Breakthrough Coaching Program as well, and I see there’s a bit of a theme with this as well. So essentially, if I understand correctly, the message is that we need to place more importance on reflective inquiry. Rather than what we traditionally learn when we’re going through coaching programs, which is all about asking good questions, powerful questions.

0:19:55.7 DR: Yeah.

0:19:56.8 WB: Could you elaborate a little bit more on the reflective inquiry construct, please?

0:20:02.5 DR: Well, first, that’s another myth, that coaching is all about asking questions. I remember even Marshall Goldsmith saying, “Nobody wants you to sit there and just ask them questions.” I’m like, “That’s true.” I was a part of creating the coaching competencies for the International Coach Federation way back 20 years ago, and it was never intended to only be questions. That there’s a lot of competencies about, reflect what you hear, summarize, paraphrase, share what you notice in the shift of their emotions. It’s always been there. So I’ve been using the term reflective inquiry, so when I went to write “Coach The Person,” I’m like, “Where did that come from?” And I went back into all my psychology work, and it wasn’t there. I went back into the ’80s, my second master’s in learning, and found that it was coined by an educational reformer in the… He wrote a book 1910, called “How We Think,” where he defined coaching. He wanted teachers to get students to think more broadly by just sharing back. So here’s what I hear that you believe. Where did that belief come from? Is there anything else you can see?

0:21:26.4 DR: So it’s the reflection that makes the question more powerful. And that, when we look at coaching, I’m your thinking partner. I’m not the expert, I’m not the healer. I’m here to help you think. And I think it’s even more powerful that when I just summarize, “Well, here’s what I heard you say and what’s important to you,” how powerful that is, when people start being able to see their thinking for themselves, which they cannot do on their own. The brain doesn’t allow them to do that. But when they start to take out their thinking and look at it outside of themselves, they start to see the gaps in their logic and the assumptions they’re making with no evidence, and the beliefs they’ve been holding on to that are no longer true. And so it’s the reflection, and the question is the follow-up to the reflection. And so many coaches and leaders don’t get that. They think it’s the powerful question, but where does the question come from? And then they say to me, “Well,” they memorize lists of questions, or they read a book that gives them questions, which means they’re coaching from memory and not being present with the person. Not what’s happening in the moment. So I’m like, “Cut it out. Thinking is the enemy of the coach. Be present and just share. Receive what they’re giving you and share it back and see what happens.” It’s really powerful.

0:22:57.9 WB: Very nice. And I really wanna share with the listeners that you’re sitting there and it’s 5:30 AM in the morning where you are. So I’d love to check in with you. How are you at the moment? Are you feeling okay? Everything’s…

0:23:12.2 DR: I’m okay. I’m a very, very early riser. I live in Arizona where it’s extremely hot. And if I wouldn’t be talking to you, I’d be out taking a walk. [chuckle] It’s the only time we can walk is early in the morning. And I was born here, so I’m used to getting up early. So don’t worry about it.

[laughter]

0:23:36.8 WB: I was looking at your body language coming alive. So, listening to your suggestions…

0:23:46.3 DR: And I have my coffee.

0:23:46.4 WB: You have your coffee, yeah, very powerful. The majority of the book talks about five essential techniques. We’re not gonna go through those today, so we’ll keep a little bit of mystique for the readers, but you also talk about three mental habits. And when I read them, and I reflected on my own leadership career, I think these are so powerful. And I would really love to spend a little bit of time, if you don’t mind, just touching on those three habits. Would that be okay?

0:24:20.1 DR: Mastery. I see coaching mastery as the deepening of presence, not just the perfection of skills, finding the perfect question and doing it right. That it’s the presence, the energy we bring to any conversation, any leadership conversation, any conversation with people, that the emotional energy we bring is just as important as the words we say. And we often forget that, especially when we’re busy and we’re frustrated and impatient. And so the three mental habits; the first one, and I’ve done a lot of research and writing around opening the entire nervous system. ‘Cause we talk a lot about the open mind, but there’s three major organs attached to a big nerve that are constantly talking to each other, and receiving and putting out energy. And that’s the heart and the gut, as well as the head. And so on my website, I have a visualization of opening the head, heart and gut. But the research shows that not only can you hear what people want and need beyond their words, but they feel safe with you. There’s all this research about the safety people feel, which means that they’re willing to open up to you and look at mistakes they’ve made in the past, what’s possible going forward.

0:26:00.5 DR: So we do open our mind with curiosity, but do you care about this person in front of you? They’re gonna know. Or at least believe in them, even if they’ve disappointed you. And so we open our heart with that, and then our gut we open with courage, to try coaching even when it feels awkward. So we open the three centers in our nervous system with emotions. Curiosity, care and courage. That should be done before every conversation quickly. [chuckle]

0:26:36.9 DR: Just to breathe and to open our centers, then you’re able to receive, not just listen. And I say listen, feels like with something we do to people, but when I’m patiently receiving what you’re saying and what you’re expressing in the moment, and I can receive it with my entire nervous system, then I can hear the most important things to you. I can hear the fears behind your words, your doubts, your worries, your concerns, your frustrations. I’ll hear those most important words. People always say, “How did you pick that up?” I say, “Because I wasn’t thinking in the moment. I was just receiving.” In fact, I don’t think when I’m having these conversations, I just receive it and offer it back and ask them, what do they think about that. And so it’s receive, don’t just listen.

0:27:31.4 DR: And the third one, which is so critical, is to catch and release judgment. Because we’re all judgy by nature, it’s the way our brain protects us. We walk into a room, we have to know what’s safe, what’s not safe, where to sit, [chuckle] who to talk to, so there’s nobody that’s non-judgmental, it doesn’t exist. And I can remember being in another country where somebody said something that, boy, just triggered me, my whole value system and I could feel it in my body and I went, “Oh look, there’s my judgment.” It’s an emotion. And if you can catch that tenseness, when you tighten up, because you don’t agree with what they’re saying, it’s not right, it’s wrong, and whatever that is, or you don’t like them, or whatever, and just breathe into that tension, release it and come back to be present and believe that in the possibility. Judgment derails us, and we’re doing it all the time. So I always say, “The practice is go places you know it’s gonna trigger your judgment, like the airport, the grocery store.” For me, it’s seeing my sister. [laughter] And go, “Oh look, there’s my judgment,” and breathe and release it so you can start recognizing the moment you feel judgment, so you can breathe and release it and come back to be present, ’cause people know when you judge them. So can you come back and again, just believe in the possibility that maybe we can move through this today?

0:29:15.9 WB: So powerful. And I was visualizing while you were speaking about how often I would be guilty as charged for allowing my biases, my judgement to cloud my listening ability. For sure, it’s a hugely important message. So thank you for sharing that. I’m conscious of the time, and I know that you have some exciting news. I don’t know if you wanna talk about it here, but I believe there may be another book in the pipeline.

0:29:52.4 DR: Well, I have this new program we just launched for WBECS. It’s a self-study course on breakthrough coaching. So you can access it at any timezone, you can go through quickly, not so quickly, and I put in a lot of new material. There’s 22 videos, 22 resource tools and practice, and you can join a whole community. I’m very excited. And my editor for my books said, “What are you working on?” And I told him, he said, “Oh, I like that title.” I said, “I don’t own it, I do this with WBECS, The World Business And Executive Coaching Summit.” I said, “It’s co-trademarked.” And so we got to talking and we said, “Well, what about if we tried to do a partnership?” And so I talked to WBECS and they’re very excited. So we’ve… I brought together my publisher with WBECS, and they talked me into writing another book [chuckle] that my publisher then will put a page in the back to promote my breakthrough coaching programs, and WBECS will promote it to their hundreds of thousands of people on their database, so it’s a win-win situation. I already have most of the content, so… And then we’ve decided that we’ll launch it next year in conjunction with the new certification program for breakthrough coaching. So they’ve talked me into another book that will be “Breakthrough Coaching,” it’ll come out nine months a year from now, but it’ll complement the program that’s out there and a new program that we’ll be launching, so it’s exciting, it’s exciting.

0:31:40.7 WB: I’m really interested what was going through your mind while you were explaining that. Your body language, you lit up. Your face lit up while you were explaining that. So I can sense that there’s a lot of passion and pride behind this particular project.

0:31:56.6 DR: Yeah. Well, the breakthrough coaching program, they keep pushing me for more, which means that I’ve gotta go out and do more research and work with people like my gurus and… So it’s not a typical program, and every time I put it out there, there’s new things that excited me, that excite me to share. So I’m not doing the same program over and over and over. So even the people that went through the original breakthrough coaching, if they go through this one, they’re gonna see there’s new things, and so I’m excited that they frustrate me, they keep pushing me, they want more and more and more all the time, but then it forces me to create new material, new exercises, new tools that we can put out in the world. So it’s a frustration that’s exciting.

[laughter]

0:32:56.7 WB: I look forward to it very much, so I’ll be waiting for the next 12 months.

[chuckle]

0:33:02.6 DR: For the book, but the program’s out. [laughter]

0:33:05.7 WB: Absolutely, absolutely. Any key takeaways before we wrap up our discussion or our conversation today? Any message you would love to leave to the world, [laughter] at least to this audience that we have?

0:33:21.8 DR: Well, I said to you about being present, knowing what emotions as a leader, even if you’re running a team, a conversation, you set the emotional tone, you are the weather. [chuckle] And so being present to your emotions and shifting them and staying with the person, they want you to be present and to care, they don’t need you to be perfect and to know everything.

0:33:54.2 WB: Very nice. Well, I’m going to let you get on with your very early morning start and conclude here, but I would just like to end by saying thank you very much once again. Where would people go to find some of your material or to find more about yourself, your books?

0:34:17.0 DR: Well, my website is covisioning one… Well actually, outsmartyourbrain.com will get you to the website, but it’s covisioning.com, but people don’t always spell that right. [laughter]

0:34:30.9 WB: Okay. We’ll link to that.

0:34:32.1 DR: Either one will get you there, covisioning, C-O-V-I-S-I-O-N-I-N-G.

0:34:39.4 WB: All right.

0:34:40.3 DR: And all my books and materials are there or just… I sent you the link on the breakthrough coaching program.

0:34:47.3 WB: Yes. We’ll link to that.

0:34:48.8 DR: So both of those show my work. But on my website, all my books and resource materials, and all kind… And my blog. I’m just about to put out a new blog on why you should forget trying to do time management. [laughter] So go there, you’ll get lots of new stuff all the time.

0:35:09.3 WB: Fantastic. Alright. Well, Dr. Reynolds, Marcia Reynolds, it’s been a wonderful delight. Thank you very much for taking the time to have a conversation, not only with me, but with our listeners on the ET Project.

0:35:23.3 DR: Thank you.

0:35:23.4 WB: Thank you.

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0:35:23.7 Speaker: Thank you for joining us on the ET Project a show for executive talent development. Until next time, check out our site for free videos, e-books, webinars and blogs at coaching4companies.com.