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ET-082: A conversation with Mr. Wayne Mullins

ET-082: A conversation with Mr. Wayne Mullins

and your host Wayne Brown on January 09, 2024

and your host Wayne Brown on January 09, 2024

Episode notes: A conversation with Mr. Wayne Mullins

Hello and welcome to the ET Project. I’m your host, Wayne Brown, and as usual, we’re delighted to be delivering this podcast for executive talent all over the world whom we’re affectionately referring to as Team ET.

Welcome to week two of January 2024, I’m very excited today to be heading to the city of Alexandria in the state of Louisiana in the USA, and chatting with our guest Mr. Wayne Mullins. Wayne is a husband, father of four, entrepreneur, the founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, creator of the Freelance Accelerator, and author of Full Circle Marketing, which you’ll hear us explore deeply during this conversation.

He’s an out-of-the-box against-the-grain thinker, and this is more than paid off for his company as well as his clients. Wayne leads from the heart and is passionate and unapologetic about doing so. As founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, he’s inspired clients from more than 100 industries, and his work directly influences more than 250,000 entrepreneurs each year.

Here is an extract from our conversation as we start to get into it…

One kind of big-picture caveat to the story is this, so often in our lives, we get hung up on understanding the next step and understanding how this ties into, quote unquote the purpose or meaning of our life. And what’s interesting about the word purpose, is that purpose comes from the same word as usefulness. So if we were to have a hammer sitting on the table, the only way to understand the usefulness of that hammer is to pick it up and use it. So the same is true in our life, so my journey is just that. I didn’t start, at the beginning of my career thinking I wanted to be a marketer or own an agency. I started with this passion for understanding human psychology through sales. So my background was learning sales and studying sales. As a result of growing and developing myself as a salesperson, this gap began to grow between the amount of money I was making for the company, the revenue I was bringing in, and my pay. Both were going up, but the revenue brought in was spiking much quicker than my pay. So I had this idea, what if I did something for myself? So I left that corporate job and decided to launch a lawn and landscape company. Now here in Louisiana, that season is about nine months out of the year, so it’s a pretty long season…

Today’s Guest: MR. WAYNE MULLINS

Wayne’s company helps entrepreneurs build exceptional teams and create high-performance cultures, driving results for business owners through innovative marketing, branding, social media, and website design. Team ET, Wayne has a very interesting backstory about his journey that led to his clients heavily influencing his decision to start his marketing company after they witnessed firsthand how he grew and scaled successfully his Lawn mowing business.

Plus, in his book, Wayne unveils two very simple-to-apply marketing tools that helped him achieve success. Therefore, I’m quietly confident that you’re going to find this conversation to be not only insightful but also encouraging for your endeavors.

Final words from Wayne:

The main thing would be this. So if you go back to the kind of the clock analogy and the natural progression, and you were to draw a line straight down the middle, so from 12 O’clock to Six O’clock, everything on the right-hand side is about attracting, right? It’s about the strangers and encouraging them friends, and then getting them to hand you money, everything on the left-hand side, which is turning your customers into evangelists and then giving them tools and resources to help them spread your message that is about keeping and converting. And so the simple question for people to ponder is this, what percent of my marketing budget is going to attracting, and what percent is going to be kept and converting? And it doesn’t matter what those percentages are. What I would challenge you to do is move more of your money from attracting to keeping, that’s what I would encourage…

Transcript:

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0:00:00.0 Wayne Brown: Hello, I’m your host, Wayne Brown and welcome to The ET project. We’re delighted to be delivering this podcast for executive talent all over the world, whom we’re affectionately referring to as Team ET. Welcome to week two of January, 2024, and I’m very excited today to be heading to the city of Alexandria in the state of Louisiana in the USA, and chatting with our guest Mr. Wayne Mullins. Wayne is a husband, father of four, entrepreneur, and the founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, creator of the Freelance Accelerator, and author of Full Circle Marketing, which you’ll hear us explore deeply during this conversation. He’s an out of the box against the grain thinker, and this is more than paid off for his company as well as his clients. Wayne leads from the heart and is passionate and unapologetic about doing so. As founder of Ugly Mug Marketing, he’s inspired clients for more than 100 industries, and his work directly influences more than 250,000 entrepreneurs each year.

0:01:03.9 WB: His company helps entrepreneurs build exceptional teams and create high performance cultures, driving results for business owners through innovative marketing, branding, social media, and website design. Team ET, Wayne has a very interesting backstory about his journey that led to his clients heavily influencing his decision to start his marketing company after they witnessed firsthand how he grew and scaled successfully his Lawn mowing business. Plus, in his book, Wayne unveils two very simple to apply marketing tools that helped him achieve the success. Therefore, I’m quietly confident that you’re going to find this conversation to be not only insightful, but also encouraging for your own endeavors. So please ready yourself now, sit back and prepare for some real learning from our marketing guru, Mr. Wayne Mullins, as we explore your ability to attract and keep a customer.

0:02:02.1 Speaker: Welcome to the ET project, a podcast for those executive talents determined to release their true potential and create an impact. Join our veteran coach and mentor Wayne Brown as we unpack an exciting future together.

0:02:18.7 WB: Welcome Team ET, another fantastic week. I don’t know if you can believe it, I can’t, but we’re in the middle of February, 2024 already. Welcome everyone to the ET show or the ET project. This is where we have the opportunity to sit with world leaders as well as influencers. Chat about their journey and their experience along the way. And you’ve already heard me mentioned during the introduction that we’re off to the city of Alexandria in the state of Louisiana in the USA. And chatting with our guest, and I think… Yes, our first marketing guru for the year, Mr. Wayne Mullins. Wayne, I’m very happy to welcome you to our ET project.

0:03:01.9 Wayne Mullins: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here from, I guess the other side of the world. And looking forward to diving into some interesting conversation today.

0:03:10.3 WB: Absolutely. So what I thought we’d talk about today is a couple of marketing tools that, as you mentioned, have been around probably more than a century and you believe they’ve become somewhat overlooked amidst the current hype, and I’m looking forward to getting into that conversation. Before that, we have a lot of international listeners in our base and they’re probably not as familiar with Louisiana in the US as you will be, and almost certainly Alexandria will have no meaning to them. So, I wonder, if you don’t mind, could you do a little bit of a geography lesson for us and just sort of paint the picture of where you’re sitting?

0:03:55.8 WM: Absolutely. So, Louisiana is going to be in the Gulf region, so southern part of North America. And we are about three and a half hours Northwest of New Orleans, mostly north, but slightly west of New Orleans. So, New Orleans, big city, big port there, International port. We are for those who have maybe heard of New Orleans or seen images or pictures from New Orleans, if you google New Orleans and the sights and sounds. We are the polar opposite of that picture. We are kind of in a wooded area, very quiet, population about 48,000 people. And that’s where I’m at today.

0:04:39.0 WB: I know when we first connected, we spoke about your career journey and the various transitions that you’ve made after leaving university, et cetera. I wonder if you’d mind sharing a little bit about that career and those stages, but most importantly, what led you into this field of marketing?

0:05:00.1 WM: Absolutely. I’m glad to share that story. One kind of big picture caveat to the story is this, that so often in our lives we get hung up on understanding the next step and understanding how this ties into, quote unquote the purpose or meaning for our life. And what’s interesting about the word purpose, purpose comes from the same word as usefulness. So if we were to have a hammer sitting on the table, the only way to understand the usefulness of that hammer is to pick it up and use it. So the same is true in our life, so my journey is just that. I didn’t start out, in the beginning of my career thinking I want to be a marketer or own an agency. I started out with this passion for understanding human psychology through sales. So my background was learning sales and studying sales. As a result of growing and developing myself as a salesperson, this gap began to grow between the amount of money I was making for the company, the revenue I was bringing in and my pay. Both were going up, but the revenue bringing in was spiking much quicker than my pay. So I had this idea, what if I did something for myself? So I left that corporate job and decided to launch a lawn and landscape company. Now here in Louisiana, that season is about nine months out of the year, so it’s a pretty long season.

0:06:25.0 WB: Right.

0:06:25.6 WM: Over the course of a three-year period, Wayne, I grew that from startup to a very large, it was the largest in the region, company and sold that business. But it was during the course of that growth over that three-year period that a lot of other business owners, many of them clients of the lawn and landscape company, started coming to me and saying, “Hey, we’ve seen the growth. We’ve seen it go from you by yourself to you and a couple of people to multiple crews. What are you doing?” And the answer was marketing. We were doing some very specific things when it comes to our marketing approach.

0:07:02.8 WB: And when did you first found the company Ugly Mug Marketing?

0:07:08.6 WM: Just over 15 years ago now.

0:07:11.2 WB: You’ve survived a lot of changes in the economy and pandemics and so you’re doing something that must be resonating with your clients. What are you doing specifically? How do you support your clients?

0:07:27.2 WM: Absolutely. I’d say the bigger thing, though, that I had to survive over those years was my ego and getting over my own stupidity and myself. But to answer your question, what I would say is we focus on results. Now, I know that’s very cliché, I know that’s what everyone likes to say, but we back that up through our actions, meaning, we tell a new client when they come in the door, “Give us two months, within two months. If you don’t feel great about where we are and where we’re heading, we want you to go find someone else to work with. We don’t want you to stay as a client.” And as a result, we have really phenomenal client life cycles. They stay with us for long periods of times. We’ve got clients that have been with us seven, eight, nine, 10 years at this point because we stay focused on what matters most to them, and that is results.

0:08:25.2 WM: And you’ve written a book, and we’re going to get into the book in some detail. What comes across very clearly, at least to me, is the simplicity that you like to approach marketing by. It’s… The book is a great read, it’s an easy read, it’s a short read. But the message is very clear, very simple, and it sounds like listening to you at the moment that that’s part of the philosophy that you really try and keep it as straightforward and easy as you can with the marketing approach. Is that a fair assessment?

0:09:05.1 WM: Absolutely. Spot on, Wayne. I think too often we get so distracted by the latest social platform or what the latest guru is telling us to do that I always say that foundations get lost to fads, and that is certainly true in the marketing world.

0:09:22.4 WB: All right. Well, let’s jump into the book. It’s called ‘Full Circle Marketing. Transform Your Marketing and Turn Customers into Evangelists’. So when I first read the title, I thought this is gonna be a good read. [chuckle] I’m looking forward to understanding how I can have some evangelists as my clients. I was really curious, what was the purpose, and we spoke to the word purpose, but what was your purpose behind writing the book? What were you aiming to achieve through this read?

0:10:01.8 WM: Sure. So a couple of things come to mind specifically. Number one, as we’ve grown the agency, Wayne, what has happened is the people that I personally love working with just simply can’t afford to work with us. Because as we’ve grown, as we’ve become more successful, our fees have increased, the size of clients that we work with has gotten bigger and larger. And so my passion, though, are those people who are the mom and pop, who are starting out on their own, who don’t have VC money, they don’t have a lot of money, they’re bootstrapping their business and they’re trying to figure this thing called marketing out. And so it’s for those people. That is my passion, helping those people.

0:10:44.1 WB: Yeah. And look, as I said, it’s the message throughout the book, it’s so clear, it’s so simple to follow. And yet, as I was reading it and visualizing the actions that you actually suggest we do, it’s so powerful. So I really encourage everyone to grab a copy. It’s not a sales pitch. It’s really a great book for anyone that’s got a business. What I did love about it is, and correct me if I’m wrong on this, but you’ve written it in a way that actually demonstrates and promotes the message that you’re delivering on the pages. So, for instance, you talk about grabbing attention and we’ll get into the model in a minute. But the way that I see you do that is you kick off with a fairly open assault on some big names in the marketing business. So you certainly pique the reader’s interest and their attention right from the get go. Have you had any pushback, by the way, from some of the people you mentioned in the book?

0:11:54.2 WM: I haven’t. And again, I do that for that exact reason. You’re spot on with that assessment. It’s to kind of cause people to pause and pay attention, because what I’ve learned about myself is that we get into these ruts, we get into these habits and into these patterns where we’re always looking for the next new thing. And there’s certainly people in the industry who have learned to capitalize on that. So they’re coming out with, if AI is the big buzzword right now. Well, there are marketing gurus who have courses now available on how to utilize AI in your marketing. And again, nothing wrong with that. But I want to say, how do we boil this down to what matters most? What are the core ingredients that move people from not knowing about you, your business, your organization, to actually taking out their wallet and handing you money? What’s the human psychology there and how do we as marketers leverage that?

0:12:57.8 WB: Yeah. Yeah, you do that so beautifully. So I’d love to dive deeper into the book, if you don’t mind. And there’s some really valuable insights that it offers. So hopefully all our listeners can pick that up through our conversation. But again, if you don’t grab the book, it’s just over 100 pages. So it’s a very quick read. You start with a number of things, but there’s a very simplistic marketing definition, probably the cleanest, simplest I’ve ever seen myself. And it is essentially marketing is your ability to attract and keep a customer. Where did you come up with that? It is so simple, but it’s so specific to what you’re talking about.

0:13:46.3 WM: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where that came from. I think it came just honestly out of working with so many clients and living this day in and day out for 15 plus years in the agency, plus the years before practicing this with my own business. What’s interesting about that definition and the way that we choose to define it. And again, it’s not like we have the rights to the only proper definition of marketing. There’s a lot of correct, good definitions. But when we talk about your ability to attract and to keep, the keep is a clear distinction between what most marketers would believe to be true. You see, I have a degree in marketing, and we were trained that our job is to bring people to the point of sale. That is the role, that is the job of the marketer. And that was true maybe 20 or 30 years ago, to bring them to the point of the sale. But you see Wayne, we live in this world now where there’s 6.4, 6.5 billion people with this device that I’m holding up called a smartphone. And what that means is there’s 6.4 billion people around the world who have the ability within an instant to share with their friends about their experience with your brand.

0:15:06.6 WM: And yet as marketers, we haven’t figured out how to leverage that power, how to turn our ordinary customers into evangelists for our brand. And so that is the keeping part, the keeping and converting them into evangelists.

0:15:24.7 WB: And we’re going to talk more about this attract and keep, because it’s one that you demonstrated visually, but it’s essentially the basis of the model or the two models that we’re going to talk about. So let’s elaborate on the first one. AIDA is an acronym, four words, A-I-D-A. And the first one is about attention. So do you wanna share a little bit about what that means? Why is it important?

0:15:56.5 WM: Absolutely. So when you think, let’s just use social media for example, when you think about putting something on social media, your number one objective as a marketer is to get people to pay attention to what you’ve put there on social media. And yet as marketers, we don’t take time to think about what does my average, my typical prospect, what is their newsfeed or their… Whatever they’re looking at, what does it look like? And how can I stand out? How can I be different so that it does capture attention? And a very practical thing that listeners can do here is go look at your competitor. So if you’re talking about doing post on, you pick the platform, it doesn’t matter, but you’re talking about doing post there, go look at what your competitors are doing and maybe build out kind of just some screenshots that show all of the styles that they’re using, the photos that they’re using, the type of text they’re using, and then do something that’s polar opposite. Just by doing that one thing, you are going to carve out space mentally in the minds of your prospects.

0:17:06.9 WB: So you mentioned NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, and then you talk about pattern interrupts is something that we talk about in NLP. So essentially, you’re suggesting that we need to find a way to attract their attention by interrupting their, almost their habits that they go through day in, day out and become different, attract their attention. Is that, did I get that right?

0:17:35.1 WM: Absolutely. And I love the fact that you’re familiar with NLP, because it is a core part of marketing. It is that pattern interrupt. It is breaking someone out of that rut, out of just the scroll, right. This death scroll on social media where they’re just scrolling forever. You’ve got to do something that breaks them out of that. So you’re spot on.

0:18:00.4 WB: I posted about an incident I had in Starbucks just a couple of weeks ago, coincidentally. I’ve been going to the same Starbucks for the last two years. And the routine is, I walk in, I’m greeted, I order my coffee, I walk over, I put down, and then I walk back, get my coffee and carry on. So two weeks ago, same approach, same thing happened, walked in, ordered the coffee, went over to sit down at the table and turned around to go and get the coffee. And here’s the lady who’d served me standing there behind me with the coffee in her hand. Now, such a simple thing, but totally broke that pattern, totally changed my whole mood, my whole psyche, just in that one simple action. And my mind went straight to that when I was reading about this. It doesn’t have to be something complex, I guess. It can be fairly simple, but you just have to find that thing to interrupt that pattern.

0:19:00.2 WM: Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely.

0:19:01.9 WB: All right. Well, the second word in the acronym AIDA is interest. Then you say that people are interested in their interests, not your products and services. So I wonder if you can share more on that.

0:19:19.0 WM: Yeah, I think that because our businesses are our babies. They’re the things that we’ve poured our heart and our soul into that sometimes we don’t want to admit that our babies may be ugly. They may not be as attractive as we want to believe. And when we think about positioning our products, putting our products or services in front of people…

0:19:40.2 WB: Yeah.

0:19:40.3 WM: It’s important to remember that they don’t care about if we sell golf clubs, they don’t care about the fact that we’ve spent the last 12 years researching and developing this amazing new golf club. What do they care about? Their interest is in removing a few strokes off of their golf game, right?

0:19:55.2 WB: Yeah.

0:19:55.3 WM: That is their interest. They don’t care about the research. They don’t care about all the things that we’re so hung up on. So as marketers, we have to learn to speak to their true interests, not to the things that we think are interesting.

0:20:11.0 WB: The third word is desire. And again, you make a statement that it starts with knowledge, that there’s something better that’s possible.

0:20:23.2 WM: Yeah. Just to use the golf example again.

0:20:25.4 WB: Yeah.

0:20:26.7 WM: If we understand our audience so well, that we understand that the person looking at the ad or reading the ad that they’re tired of getting made fun of by all of their friends they play golf with, because they’re always in last place, right?

0:20:40.6 WB: Right.

0:20:40.6 WM: If we understand that they’ve worked for years trying to improve their swing, if we understand that they just want a lower score, they wanna come out champion when they get together with their buddies or their friends and play golf. And so learning to speak to that outcome and paint that end picture for them is what we have to learn to do. We have to help paint them into the desired future that they’re looking to create, whether that’s a desired achievement, right, a goal they’re trying to accomplish, or that could be the removal of some pain or a problem that our product or service can remove.

0:21:18.5 WB: Yeah. Fantastic. You also do something interesting, you incorporate Maslow’s Law or hierarchy of needs, and you suggest that we should try and overlay our product and service and see where it sits on that hierarchy. What’s the purpose you’re achieving through that action?

0:21:43.5 WM: I think number one, it helps us to emotionally connect.

0:21:46.0 WB: Right.

0:21:46.7 WM: With our audience, because so often we get so hung up and so focused on doing the thing, writing the ad, creating the graphic, making the video, getting the piece out there, quote unquote doing the marketing, that we lose sight of how does this emotionally connect and what emotional needs does this fulfill in the lives of our prospective clients?

0:22:12.6 WB: Yeah, it was a very interesting exercise. I tried to put as much time as I could onto each one, and this one really, got me thinking just to your point about the emotions, right? So we do get caught up in doing the doing to get the product or the service in front of people, and we forget about what is the emotional connection we’re making. And to that point, you also give the example of the iPhone and how that really evoked desire for something better. To your point about this whole desire really resonates that there is something better possible. So I thought, Jobs obviously knew what he was doing, [chuckle], and your example was very much on point. What, are there any other examples out there that spring to mind that you could suggest?

0:23:05.5 WM: Yeah, I think, I’ll jump to kind of an extreme example would be like a Supercar, like a Lamborghini, a Ferrari, any of these cars that are very expensive I don’t know what you officially call those car supercars, I guess, but they don’t talk about necessarily. Yeah. They play to the human emotions. They don’t talk about all the specs and all those things. Yes, they’re in the brochures and yes, you can find that information, but if you were to go watch a commercial from any of these places, you’re not gonna hear them talking about all the specs. You’re not gonna hear them talking about the people that build the cars. You’re gonna see them paint you into a story, into a desired outcome. And anyone that’s typically at the higher level in terms of pricing, they’ve become masters at painting people into those futures. Now, iPhone was one of the first examples. I mean, at the time, no one could imagine paying that much for a phone, right? I mean, cell phones were still fairly new, but the iPhone was, I… If I remember correctly, 2-3 times more than the average phone at that time.

0:24:19.4 WB: Yeah, yeah. Great examples. And it really as you’re reading it from a business perspective, a leader’s perspective, it really brings you back down to earth to start to assess and analyze what are you doing? And how does it all fit with your customer? Does it really create that desire? Does it create that belief that there is something better out there? So we’ve covered attention, interest, desire, and the fourth word in the acronym is action. Which of course, without it the rest is null and void. But could you explain a little bit more about the action, the call to action as such?

0:25:01.8 WM: Absolutely. Particularly for small businesses, what we find to be true is that they do so many things well with their marketing, they get to the very end, but then they don’t tell the audience what to do next. So whether that’s pick up the phone and call, whether that’s click the button now. Whether that’s visit us tomorrow, so we have to remember that again, people are in certain habits, in certain patterns, and we have to interrupt that. And the other thing we have to remember is that people are inherently lazy. Meaning they’re gonna keep doing what they’ve been doing. So we have to come along and tell them, specifically, take this next step, do this next thing. And again, it’s very subtle, it’s very small, but it’s those little details that make the big difference when it comes to your campaigns.

0:25:51.6 WB: You have a very nice thinking approach through. You give four factors that people need to think about in taking that action or your client taking that action. So you talk about, what’s the next logical step that they need to take? How are they going to complete that step? One thing that I thought was very clever, was to think about what are some of the obstacles that may be in their path in taking those steps, and then will that action be enough to move to that next stage? So I think that sequence in itself, that thought process, just thinking through the call to action, probably is something that a lot of people miss. I know I’ve never looked at it in that context call to action. We all hear about it but what does it really mean? And I think in the book, you, those four factors really give some clarity around that. So that for me was very nicely… A nice awakening. A nice insight. As you say, this tool, this model, it’s been around a long time, maybe more than 100 years. Where did you first come across this? How did you find it? What was your exposure to it?

0:27:18.3 WM: And to be honest with you Wayne, I don’t remember where I first came across it. As you and I chatted previously, I’m an avid reader, an avid student, and so I’m always learning, always growing, and I certainly didn’t come up with that on my own. It’s been around for, I think the first time it was written about was like early 1900s, if I’m not mistaken. And what’s so fascinating to me is that, that same framework that was applicable back then, still is just as relevant today. And here’s the thing that I just wanna point out, is that yes, there’s all kinds of new platforms. Yes, there’s all kinds of technology and all those things are wonderful.

0:27:57.5 WB: Yeah.

0:27:58.9 WM: But the problem that we have is we are doing all of these tactical things without an underlying or overlaying strategy. We’re not being strategic. And so the AIDA framework that we just went over, is a strategy when it’s put together cohesively. It gives you a strategic way of crafting your messaging and ensuring that your marketing is going to be effective.

0:28:26.3 WB: Yeah. And you make the point that one of the stumbling blocks for people may be in its simplicity. So we have this thing, complexity bias, which is where we think that the more complex may bring more value. So I like that you highlight this fact that it’s a simple tool, but it’s a very powerful one. And we have to be careful of our own biases that we don’t underestimate the value that it can bring. So that brings us then, based on that knowledge, you say that that’s only half of the equation. However, We also need to think about the next model, the next tool, which you refer to as natural progression. When I first looked at it, I’m thinking to myself, this is the customer touchpoint. This is a customer journey map. But it’s actually the way that you present this natural progression makes it a lot more tangible, in the sense that you bring it to the emotion again. You introduce how it becomes this emotional connection. And this is where our evangelists come into the picture through this natural progression. So maybe you could just introduce it in general or as an overview, and then we can touch on the four characters or the four steps.

0:29:55.4 WM: Absolutely. So I think the simplest way is just if those listening could just visualize an old analog circular clock, up on a wall somewhere. So it’s got the hour hand, the minute hand, the second hand. And at the top of the clock where it says 12, the number 12 is, we’re gonna put there strangers. And so strangers are anyone out there who doesn’t know about our product or service, but we believe they would benefit from our product or service. So it’s not just everyone who doesn’t know about us. And that’s a key distinction. It’s those who don’t know about us but would benefit, or at least we believe they would benefit from it. Now, over at the three o’clock spot on our clock, that is what we’re gonna call friends. So our first objective with marketing is figuring out how do we move people from strangers into friends. And there’s really two core ingredients here, Wayne, that get people to make that transition. Number one, super obvious, but they have to know about us. If someone doesn’t know about you, they’re never gonna be your friend. And then the next one is they have to like you. They have to resonate with your company, your product, your service, your brand, what you stand for.

0:31:09.9 WM: They have to start liking you to become your friend. No one’s going to be your friend if they don’t like what you do. And one key distinction here that’s worth noting, if we’re not strategic with our marketing, we will spend a lot of time and attention trying to convince people who will never care about us to know about us and to try to like us. We’ll waste so much time, energy and effort there. And that’s why it’s critical that we define those strangers really, really well in the beginning.

0:31:43.4 WB: Yeah. You use a great example in the book where you’re talking about a coffee shop and promoting the coffee shop in Facebook as a Facebook ad or whatever, and narrowing down the field for the ad, to the immediate area around the coffee shop so that when you do your promotion, it’s relevant to those people within that area of the coffee shop. So I thought that was a very nice distinction.

0:32:13.2 WM: Yeah. And again, it’s not that we don’t know the right things to do as marketers or as entrepreneurs. It’s that we have so many things on our plate and we’re trying to keep them all up and going at the same time that we lose sight of these little fundamental things. And it’s in these little fundamental shifts of attention and perspective that the game is won or the game is lost. But the next one, if you want me to move forward, I can move to the next one here.

0:32:41.0 WB: Yes, please, yeah.

0:32:41.9 WM: So we’re at the three o’clock spot. We’ve got our friends now. They know about us and they like us. The next goal is to move them to the six o’clock spot, which is what we’d call a customer or a client. And it’s at the six o’clock spot where money changes hands. That’s where the wallet comes out and they hand us money in exchange for our product or our service. Now, there’s one core ingredient that’s required here to get people to go from being a friend at the three o’clock spot to handing us money, becoming a customer at six o’clock. And that is they have to trust. They have to trust that our brand, our company is gonna stand behind the product or service. They have to trust that they’re going to receive more value from the product or service than the money they’re parting with. Right? They have to believe and trust that the product is actually gonna do what we say it’s gonna do. And here’s an interesting thing, Wayne, that I’ve learned over the years is that people don’t trust us as marketers or as entrepreneurs. They know that we are biased towards our product. We are biased towards our service.

0:33:49.1 WB: Right.

0:33:49.4 WM: They also know that they shouldn’t trust us because we have a vested interest in that decision. So the question then becomes, who do they trust? Well, they trust other people who are like them.

0:34:02.7 WB: Right.

0:34:03.2 WM: And that is a key distinction for us as marketers.

0:34:05.7 WB: So by that you mean they look for validation, where other people have tried your service and liked the results. And so testimonials, for instance, become very powerful.

0:34:22.6 WM: Absolutely. Testimonials, case studies, reviews, ratings, and this ties into the next one, but when other people speak on behalf of a company. In other words, when let’s just say that I’m in the market for a new vehicle, and a friend of mine just purchased a new truck and he’s telling me all the amazing things about his new truck. Well, he’s shaping and he’s shifting my perspective, and he’s inferring his trust in the brand, in the truck, in the product, in the service he received when he bought it to me. And I’m gonna trust him way more than I’m gonna trust, let’s just say it was a Ford. I’m gonna trust him way more than I’m gonna trust all the advertising that Ford does to try to get me to buy their truck.

0:35:07.4 WB: Yeah, you have a nice acronym that says, where trust goes, money flows, which is a shift from the first time that you introduced that flow, which is with attention, where you said, where attention goes, money flows. Now we’ve expanded on that to bring trust into the really to the forefront. Before we move on to the last one, I’m just wondering, how do you earn that trust apart from the referrals, apart from the testimonials, is there a way that we can start out, let’s say we’re brand new startup. How do we build this in the first place? What should we be thinking about? What should we be doing?

0:35:58.5 WM: Absolutely. So trust is super fascinating to me. Trust, I love to think of it as concentric circles, right? So if you think of it like degrees of separation, if you will, the people who are the most closely associated with you, friends, family, they have the most trust for you. As you move one degree of separation away. So it’s friends of your friends, right. They… Their trust in you is imparted through your friends. Now, as you move another circle away, friends of friends of friends, right. The trust is weaker. And so for us as marketers, we have to be aware of that. And what that means is we have to ensure that our campaigns, our positioning, are working in a manner to build trust. And the further someone’s out, the more we have to work in that direction.

0:36:51.8 WB: Okay. You talk about language as well as being important. So using a specific language, not perhaps something that’s been created on chatGPT, which is quite often very flowering. What’s the value in the language?

0:37:11.1 WM: Yeah, language is the core of everything. Language is the core of all communication. Like you mentioned, we live in a world where anyone can have AI create unlimited amounts of marketing content. And what I think we’re gonna quickly discover is that those with the most authentic voices are going to win. And what we’re looking for, what the public, what your audience is looking for, they are looking for trust. Is this the actual person? Is this the actual company communicating with me? Is it an authentic person? Why? Why does that even matter, right? If you say something one way and you use AI to generate language of something very similar, why would it matter? The reason it matters to your point, is it’s about trust. Is this coming from you? Are you standing behind this? Is this authentic?

0:38:05.5 WB: Right. Right. All right. Sorry. I cut you off. I apologize. Complete the overview of the natural progression, if you don’t mind.

0:38:14.0 WM: Yeah, absolutely. So we got them to six O’clock spot. They’ve taken out their wallet, they’ve handed us money, they’re our customers. Now, for most marketers, we’re done, right. We’ve washed our hands, we’ve gone back out, and we’re looking for more strangers to bring through this process. But for smart marketers, for marketers, going into this next few years, this is where you have the ability to stand out. This is where you have the ability to turn ordinary customers into evangelist, which are over at the nine O’clock spot.

0:38:47.7 WB: Right.

0:38:48.4 WM: Now, for us as marketers, we’re not conditioned to think that way. But if we use the skills, the abilities that we have, to figure out how do we ensure that our customers and our clients love the service, the product that we’ve delivered, that is how you create evangelists for your brand. You can’t merely meet expectations. You have to ensure that you’re exceeding those expectations.

0:39:15.3 WB: Yeah, to your point about the smartphone and the ease of accessing data today, any tips on the negative consequences? Let’s say there’s some bad press about our business out there. Is there anything you’d suggest that we do to mitigate that? How do you approach that?

0:39:38.6 WM: Absolutely. I think in most cases, and again, there’s never absolutes when it comes to this, but in most cases, you should respond to the comment or to the press, right. Silence can be very deadly in those situations. And what I don’t think you should do is come out and be argumentative…

0:40:00.2 WB: Correct.

0:40:01.3 WM: And discredit them or disprove them, but instead, look for ways that you can express con… Your concern. “I’m so sorry that you felt this way. I’m so sorry that we didn’t live up to your expectations”. And you want to acknowledge how they felt. Because at the end of the day, everyone’s entitled to feel the way they feel. Everyone’s entitled to experience things the way they experience them. So we’re not necessarily agreeing that our product was terrible, our service was terrible, but we’re acknowledging the way they felt or the way that the experience came across to them. So the key lesson would be don’t run from those things. Lean into that discomfort, respond in a very, neutral way, I think, would be the best response.

0:40:46.2 WB: Is there anything that we haven’t touched on from a marketing perspective that you think we should cover?

0:40:53.8 WM: No, the main thing would be this. So if you go back to the kind of the clock analogy and the natural progression, and you were to draw a line straight down the middle, so from 12 O’clock to Six O’clock, everything on the right hand side is about attracting, right. It’s about the strangers and encouraging them friends, and then getting them to hand you money, everything on the left hand side, which is turning your customers into evangelists and then giving them tools and resources to help them spread your message that is about keeping and converting. And so the simple question for people to ponder is this, what percent of my marketing budget is going to attracting, and what percent is going to keeping and converting? And it doesn’t matter what those percentages are. What I would challenge you to do is move more of your money from attracting to keeping, that’s what I would encourage.

0:41:46.8 WB: Fantastic conversation. Where can our listeners go to get hold of the book?

0:41:54.2 WM: Yeah, the book is online to all major online book retailers. You can find it there. Just full circle marketing.

0:42:00.9 WB: What about connecting with you?

0:42:03.8 WM: The simplest place is our website. That’s uglymugmarketing.com. All of our social channels are there. Email addresses, phone numbers, all that good stuff’s all in one spot.

0:42:14.5 WB: Incredible conversation Wayne. So many insights. The book is laid out. Wish you all the success with the business in the future. And thanks for being a great guests on our show today, Wayne.

0:42:27.0 WM: Thank you so much, Wayne. I’ve enjoyed the conversation and, I really appreciate your detailed approach to the research going into it.

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0:42:34.9 Speaker: Thank you for joining us on the ET project, a show for executive talent development. Until next time, check out our site for free videos, eBooks, webinars and blogs @coaching4companies.com.