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ET-103: Revolutionizing Learning with AI: The Future of Education

With Ms. Juliette Denny

ET-103: A conversation with Ms. Juliette Denny

and your host Wayne Brown on May 28, 2024

Episode notes: A conversation with Ms. Juliette Denny

Hello and welcome to the ET Project. I’m your host, Wayne Brown, and as usual, we’re delighted to be delivering this podcast for executive talent all over the world whom we’re affectionately referring to as Team ET. 

Today, I’m morphing into an AI bot popping up in cities across Europe and the UK in an effort to keep pace with our guest Miss Juliette Denny. Juliette is a learner engagement expert with almost 20 years of experience innovating in the learning tech space. She has unrivaled passion for learner engagement and offers unparalleled insight when it comes to learning and development best practice.

She is considered a pioneer and an expert in applying gamification and social functionality to online learning. Her vibrant talks are packed with statistics, case studies and actionable takeaways and are designed to ensure you come away with new insight or a fresh perspective. And Team ET, like me, I’m confident you’re going to be able to vouch for that claim after listening to this conversation.

Here is an extract from our conversation as we start to get into it…

And I struggle with the way a lot of learning is delivered to bring out the best in people. Now, I know that’s a very 1st world problem. Okay. But the context that I was born up with was very much you’re dyslexic. Although I was very bright and very high IQ. I really, really struggled just in the basics. I think that was really what got me. I was like, surely we must be able to have a broader different types of pedagogy that can basically fit in with the kind of neurodiversity that humans have when it comes to learning. And so I think that was really it. I was really compelled ’cause I wanted to have a career where I was able to build learning technologies that really sort of bought out the best that people could be. And so that was really why I got into learning tech. I was just fascinated by this idea that you could deliver learning in a way that was really made people curious and really made them want to invest in their personal development, quite frankly…

Today’s Guest: MS. JULIETTE DENNY

A recipient of some 150 industry awards for the work her team has performed over the past decade, she has now turned her attention to revolutionizing education with new AI learning pedagogies. When asked why she’s so passionate about this, her reply is simple, because the future belongs to the curious.

To support this venture, Juliette is now heading up a company called Iridescent Technology. And I swear to you, the colour of Juliette’s hair is purely coincidental and not a marketing promo. Team ET, Please join Juliette and me with the future of personalized learning has arrived and it’s called Coeus AI. By the way, as a footnote for the learner, during our discussion you’ll hear us refer to Bloom’s taxonomy. 

More specifically, Juliette’s referring to the cognitive learning domain within the taxonomy and her new AI learning platform’s capability to bridge the lower and higher levels of that domain through demonstration and arcing between applying and analyzing.

Final words from Juliette:

If you think about the problem that we’re trying to solve, so our expertise is in the area of learning and pedagogy. We are not content providers. We’re not, we don’t come up with new innovative ways to coach new innovative ways to know. That’s not our bag. What we focus on is getting that learning pedagogy to be utilized with any content. If a company comes to us like yourself and you have an expertise in a certain area, all we do is we plug in our prompt engineering to our Claude 3 to basically that will go through and look at all of your content. And then from there, we’ll take the learner through the four stages of discovery, discussion, delivery, and demonstration.

Our niche is that. Is how to do that, not the content. So we’re hoping that we’re gonna be able to do all sorts of subjects. Fishing, how to be a great dog trainer. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely anything. That’s what we want. We want to have people curious about cake making, about needlework, about anything. But obviously even that’s an expertise that we don’t have…

[music]

0:00:05.5 Wayne Brown: Hello, I’m your host Wayne Brown and welcome to the ET Project. We’re delighted to be delivering this podcast for executive talent all over the world whom we’re affectionately referring to as Team ET. Today I’m morphing into an AI bot popping up in cities across Europe and the UK in an effort to keep pace with our guest Miss Juliette Denny. Juliette is a learner engagement expert with almost 20 years of experience innovating in the learning tech space. She has unrivaled passion for learner engagement and offers unparalleled insight when it comes to learning and development best practice.

0:00:43.2 WB: She is considered a pioneer and an expert in applying gamification and social functionality to online learning. Her vibrant talks are packed with statistics, case studies and actionable takeaways and are designed to ensure you come away with new insight or a fresh perspective. And Team ET, like me, I’m confident you’re going to be able to vouch for that claim after listening to this conversation. A recipient of some 150 industry awards for the work her team has performed over the past decade, she has now turned her attention to revolutionizing education with new AI learning pedagogies. When asked why she’s so passionate about this, her reply is simple, because the future belongs to the curious.

0:01:30.3 WB: To support this venture, Juliette is now heading up a company called Iridescent Technology. And I swear to you, the color of Juliette’s hair is purely coincidental and not a marketing promo. Team ET, Please join Juliette and me with the future of personalized learning has arrived and it’s called Coeus AI. By the way, as a footnote for the learner, during our discussion you’ll hear us refer to Bloom’s taxonomy. More specifically, Juliette’s referring to the cognitive learning domain within the taxonomy and her new AI learning platform’s capability to bridge the lower and higher levels of that domain through demonstration and arcing between applying and analyzing.

0:02:18.0 Speaker 2: Welcome to the ET Project, a podcast for those executive talents determined to release their true potential and create an impact. Join our veteran coach and mentor, Wayne Brown, as we unpack an exciting future together.

0:02:34.8 WB: Hello, Team ET. Welcome to this episode of the ET Project. Today, I’m particularly excited as our guest is not only a business leader, but is also a recognised thought leader in the L&D, the learning and development industry.

0:02:50.1 WB: And as some of you may be aware, this industry is also near and dear to my heart because I’ve been involved in some capacity for the last three decades, more formally since about 2008. And today we’re gonna head back in time a little bit to understand the evolution of learning, particularly in the corporate space at least, looking at how mainstream business has transitioned probably from about 1990s. And I wanna say a more traditional instructor-led environment with probably low knowledge retention as well as application to a more blended approach during perhaps the first decade or so of the 21st century.

0:03:33.5 WB: And then the progressive improvements up to the current use of digital technology, things like the LXP platforms, personalized experiences, gamification, even micro and immersive learning. Probably of the greatest interest for everybody, I’m guessing, will be our discussion around where we’re heading today and in the future and taking a look at least at the technological breakthroughs made possible through AI and what that means for us and what we can expect. You may be surprised to know that we’re not talking about the future in many cases anymore. We’re talking about right now. And Juliette, who’s our guest, is at the forefront of driving the shift. So with that, Juliette, welcome to the ET Project. Fantastic to have you on the show. Can’t wait to get into this conversation.

0:04:27.4 Juliette Denny: Thank you, Wayne. It’s great to be here. And thank you very much for the invite. Really appreciate it.

0:04:31.9 WB: You’ve been a recipient of many awards during your career for the work that you and your team have done. And I know that our listeners would love to hear a little bit more about that journey. So if you wouldn’t mind, would you care to share about that transition over the years?

0:04:48.6 JD: Yeah, no, I’d be delighted. So the majority of my career has been spent founding and creating a team for a company called Growth Engineering which delivers learning platforms into some of the biggest companies in the world, L’Oreal, BT, Centrica, P&G, etcetera. So that’s really been sort of the last 21 years of my career.

0:05:16.9 JD: I started it with an idea and a passion and then managed to get some misguided fools to join me in the journey. Together we’ve built something I think that’s been really quite successful. So, as you say, we’ve won over 150 different awards. We never chose to go down as sort of big venture capital sort of route in terms of financing. So it was all very kind of organic growth, but we’ve been very successful and managed to compete with some of the biggest well-funded learning technology companies in the world.

0:05:49.1 JD: So something I’m very, very proud of. So that sort of, I decided to move on about a year ago now. And ever since then, I have been working on a new venture called Iridescent Technology, and we’re focused on how AI can facilitate better learning experiences, essentially. So that’s what we are trying to build. The kind of next generation of what I would say is a learning platform.

0:06:15.3 JD: So still, I have a wonderful management team at Growth Engineering. So very happy to say that that company is going on to bigger and greater things without me. I’m very, very pleased to see Gap flourishing and doing well, but then just had something scratching in the back of my brain thinking, you know what? I just wanna see if we can build something else. So, there’s still life in this old bird yet. So I just figured I was going to have another startup at the age of 50. So yes, that was the plan.

0:06:46.9 WB: Very nice. What got you into the learning space in the first place? How did you move into that?

0:06:53.1 JD: A great question. I think it’s actually very pertinent to Iridescent Technology. It really stemmed from this idea that I’m dyslexic. And so I didn’t have the greatest time at school, but I did end up getting a post-grad and a master’s degree from Harvard eventually. And it always stuck with me the fact that people are born curious. People are born with a kind of open kind of receptor to want to learn things. And I struggle with the way a lot of learning is delivered to bring out the best in people. Now, I know that’s a very 1st world problem. Okay. But the context that I was born up with was very much you’re dyslexic. Although I was very bright and very high IQ. I really, really struggled just in the basics.

0:07:45.2 JD: I think that was really what got me. I was like, surely we must be able to have a broader different types of pedagogy that can basically fit in with the kind of neurodiversity that humans have when it comes to learning. And so I think that was really it. I was really compelled ’cause I wanted to have a career where I was able to build learning technologies that really sort of bought out the best that people could be. And so that was really why I got into learning tech. I was just fascinated by this idea that you could deliver learning in a way that was really made people curious and really made them want to invest in their personal development, quite frankly. So that was really where it headed from. Yeah.

0:08:32.3 WB: Yeah. I was born in 1960. It was very, very traditional in the sense of what was available. I was trying to put my finger on it this morning when I was thinking about our conversation. It was probably around about the mid ’80s when I was first ever introduced to a computer. And then the learning side of it came maybe another five or so years after that, for me at least, I’m wondering what was your starting point in the use of technology? Did it only start when you got into the industry or did you start using technology for learning prior to that?

0:09:15.5 JD: Yeah. I mean, I had no idea what I was building. I mean, it was, it’s quite a hilarious story really. So I’d started off and started off both engineering and I was doing consultancy to the big banks for their venture startups. So my background prior to that was working in technology companies in the kind of sales and commercial role. And so I was working for bank VC departments, essentially looking at how their startups were turning the money they’d been given to build products into revenue. So my job was to go in and basically look at their kind of nascent commercial operations and work out whether they were actually going to meet target or not, and whether they should get more funding or not. And so through that, I was like, right, we should be coding this up. We should be basically making this into a process.

0:10:07.8 JD: So we started off coding up something, which was essentially some training needs analysis, and then it would deliver your content. And I can remember walking… My next door neighbor was HR of Hewlett Packard in the UK. And I can remember walking to the park with our kids in pushchairs and she was like, “So what are you up to in Growth Engineering?” And I was like, “Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. We finally started coding something up. It’s really good. Basically it’s this kind of training needs assessment tool, and then it automatically delivers content on the back of that. And then it can basically rank and rate how the learner is doing as they kind of move through the content.” And she was like, “Oh, you’re building an element, a learning management system.” And I was like, “Yeah,” rushed home, Googled, what is a learning management system? And lo and behold, that’s what we were coding up.

0:10:52.6 JD: So that was really the story I was tripping over myself. But then we realized we were in the LMS game. And I think very luckily, because when we started the company, we were trying to get sales people to, A, understand that the processes that might be lacking in and around the work that they were doing. And also we were taught to do skills gap analysis. So we were trying to say, “Hey, look, you’re never going to, you’re only going to be as good as the process that you’re housed within. So let’s make sure that you’ve got the tools and processes that you need in order to deliver the results and then let’s look at the skills.” And it was one of those things that was sales people, they much prefer to have training face to face. They much prefer to have that.

0:11:37.3 JD: And we were trying to get them to sort of learn online. And so one of the things we came to the conclusion very quickly is that we had to incorporate engagement mechanics. And one of the big engagement mechanics that we really leaned on was gamification. So gamification and social really became our USP. So we were sort of out in front in terms of the market on gamification very, very early. I mean, this goes back 20 years ago. And that made a huge difference. That made a huge difference. And it was funny we used to have clients that were average age 50, 60 people that had worked in a kind of mechanical engineering type of environment. And then we used to bring them into this kind of gamified digital social whirlwind and actually they really liked it. And from that that’s really kind of, I think, what allowed the product to take on something different other than just a reporting tool, just, yes, this person has done this. It really kind of allowed them to explore their learning through things like level pathways through, encourage them to learn every day through things like streaks and things like that, things that are very common now, but back in the day they weren’t necessarily.

0:12:57.4 WB: So that means gamification has been around essentially 20 years, as you said. That’s way earlier than I ever had any introduction to it. I go back so far, though, I can still remember correspondence programs with universities. Now, I’m feeling really young. Okay. How rudimentary was the gamification that you were developing? And when I think of the early video games, and I’m thinking of almost Mario Brothers and the sort of simplistic technology we had back then, how advanced were you? It sounds like you were already fairly well along the journey.

0:13:36.1 JD: So I think what’s really interesting with gamification and we work very closely with professor Karl Kapp, who is really kind of one of the world’s renowned experts in this. He’s always been a real kind of ally of Growth Engineering. And we did a whole series of videos with him as well on gamification. What we have come to understand, and I guess this is the progression in technology as well is that gamification is one of those things that you have to layer gaming mechanics on one another to make the experience more immersive. So we started with really, really simple badges.

0:14:13.1 JD: Then we extended that into different types of badges. So award badges, praise badges from your manager, achievement badges, which were triggered by the platform. Then we moved into things like, level pathways, which was enormous at that time. So basically what would happen is you would have the entire company on a series of level pathways, and you’d be able to see what level your peers and rest of your team were on that profile. So you found people automatically wanting to move through the content a lot quickly. Then we added streaks. So this is and we’ve got some… So in L’Oreal, there are some beauty advisors in L’Oreal that have got streaks that go back eight years. This was when we put streaks on the platform. They have never missed a day’s learning. And recently we’ve put battles. So these are peer-to-peer battles. So these are basically one individual battling, which is particularly good for knowledge reinforcement. So as we all know, the forgetting curve kicks in.

0:15:14.9 WB: Yeah.

0:15:15.2 JD: And then you get that kind of tail off, oh, I’ve forgotten my health and safety or my whatever it might be. And then we started squad battles. So this is basically looking at, let’s say there’s a company strategic initiative in and around in a new strategy. What we want is we want the US and let’s say Europe sort of battle each other for supremacy in understanding and being able to deliver the new strategy in a kind of well kind of documented and kind of conversational way. So what we’ve come to understand is that like everything, gamification and the requirements and gamification to make it interesting for learners is constantly having to be evolved in order to have that really good experience. So now I would say most learning, unless it’s a really basic explaining the management platform or LXP would have badges, it’s highly unusual. It doesn’t have some sort of achievement or indeed progress. I mean, that’s another thing human beings love the idea of progress. So progress bars are also sort of critical in learning platform, but it’s definitely evolved and it has to evolve in terms of the features.

0:16:32.0 WB: What was the material you are associated with? Was it e-learnings or videos? What was the content based on?

0:16:40.5 JD: So the platform is content agnostic. We can take any content, so we can take everything from SCORM to XAPI content to… And the arrival of XAPI has been fantastic.

0:16:54.5 WB: Right.

0:16:55.2 JD: Because The arrival of XAPI content has allowed us to do immersive games, and that has been brilliant. So basically you can go into essentially a virtual world. You could talk to characters in the virtual world about what they know and what they don’t know. And from that, you can allow the learner to not only understand the learning objectives, but also the learning outcomes, right? So you can do it in a much more dynamic way. And so really excited about the opportunity that XAPI brings outside SCORM, but the platform itself you can create assessments tests, you can upload videos, use Vimeo links, YouTube, you can create polls. You can pretty much do anything, anything you would expect from a enterprise type platform. But recently it’s been the really exciting work has been going on with trying to open up kind of virtual worlds where we can look at individuals and how they’re interacting with virtual characters in order to understand the learning objectives and then meet the learning outcomes.

0:18:05.0 WB: One of the interactions I had with a couple of companies that were in the micro learning space, they were producing material that wasn’t only testing what you knew, but the level of confidence that you had in that knowledge. Did you also, or did your organization get into that aspect?

0:18:27.0 JD: Within gross engineering, we didn’t have that functionality, but we did. I suppose to a certain extent, you would kind of know what was going on when they were interacting with the quantitative questions that would sort of come through battles and things like that.

0:18:43.9 WB: Right, Right.

0:18:44.3 JD: But that feature I have seen in other learning platforms. It does allow you to sort of hone down the kind of learning assets, obviously, that somebody will receive if they’re not so confident. Yeah.

0:18:58.4 WB: Yeah. It was quite interesting back then. I would love to get involved again with the current technology. I was just reading a World Economic Forum report that I think was released just the end of last month called Shaping the Future of Learning. And they’re talking about AI in what they call Education 4.0. I don’t know if that’s an industry standard term now or not, but that’s how they referred to it. The discussion was really around how the education sector in general is going to be able to keep up, or if they’re going to be able to keep up with the changes, the rapid change that’s coming through AI. Do you have an opinion on that? Like how do you see our academic institutions, do you think the schools are ever going to be able to close the gap given that speed of development advanced look with AI?

0:19:57.6 JD: My take on it is very much that AI is pretty useless without humans prompt engineering it. Yeah. So we are the conductors of AI, whatever anybody. So I’m obviously deep inside of Claude 3, really trying to make Claude 3 do what I want Claude 3 to do. So although these models are incredibly powerful, they’re only powerful if a human comes along and basically makes them work the way that human conductor wants them to work. So the first thing that I would say is that there is a massive amount of passion and knowledge that is housed within the educational system. And I believe that the next wave of curating really positive educational experiences is by unlocking the talent that’s within human educator’s brains and basically putting that into AI so that we can have a much more diverse and individualized approach to educating fellow humans. So the way we are using AI in Iridescent Technology is by a really a focus on learning pedagogy. So what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to say, look, not everybody learns the same. We know that there is a kind of neurodiversity of students in the world.

0:21:24.5 JD: And what we need to code or what we need to engineer the AI to do is to help, is to A, understand what that individual learner needs and then deliver them the content that they need or they want to do in a way that basically maximizes their curiosity. So if you think about the whole purpose of learning, it is to maximize curiosity. And there’s lots of stuff out there that says if we have a one-size-fits-all approach to learning, we do end up killing curiosity. We do end up with a very unengaged audience. And what I’m interested in is because of the way AI works, how can we use our human understanding of learning pedagogy and neurodiversity to allow AI to serve our children and ourselves to basically make us better.

0:22:24.9 JD: So I think that we misunderstand the role of AI in education. This is not about AI taking over education. This is about basically us making AI almost serve us better. So that’s the way I see it. I think there’s a tremendous opportunity for those educators that are willing to put their experience in learning pedagogy, managing classrooms, managing learners, the soft skills, the stuff that AI does not know how to do. It is just doesn’t know how to… That I think is a huge potential. And do I think we’re on the brink of a revolution? Yes, I do. Because I think that if we can get AI to be able to deliver a really individual learning experience for every single person, then humans will catapult and they will unleash their inner superhero in a way that we haven’t been able to do before.

0:23:23.6 WB: You mentioned in our first call, you mentioned you’d been recently to a trade show, I think, an industry trade show. I can’t remember where it was, but I’m wondering, was there, without comparing your own product that you’re developing, was there anything that sort of jumped out that you thought, gosh, this could also be somewhat revolutionary?

0:23:46.0 JD: I think what’s revolutionary is if you sort of combine all the ideas. So one of the things is there’s lots of people in the learning space that are using, let’s say, yeah, text to speech or text to a video avatar. And I think if you link all of those things together, you’ve got a much more kind of immersive experience. But I think at the moment, there’s just a lots of noise. There’s a lot of learning technology companies that are saying, hey, I’m utilizing AI. And yes, they are, but they’re repackaging something that, in my view, is not necessarily solving the problem.

0:24:21.9 JD: So if you put one-to-many instructional design into audio, or you put it into a talking avatar, that doesn’t change the outcome. It’s still the same learning content delivered in a one-to-many approach. And so my feeling is just that they’re not doing, I think there’s more we could do. So I think we are very much at the very, very beginning of the possibilities. But there are lots of companies doing super fun things with graphics and videos and avatars. And I think that’s great. But my passion and my interest is not in changing what the learning looks like. My passion and interest is really understanding how we can improve the learning pedagogy. So what I’m looking for are those types of solutions. So I think you’ll always find what you’re looking for. And unfortunately, I haven’t found what I’m looking for, which is why I’m interested in pursuing the project that Iridescent Technology is all about. But I hope that there will be companies that will come into the market. Because there’s no way one company can solve the problem of individualized pedagogy for every single human on earth. I mean, it is definitely something that different companies will have to come into in order to deliver.

0:25:50.2 WB: Well, let’s jump across and start looking at everything you’re doing. So you’ve mentioned Iridescent Technologies. Could you introduce the company, a little bit of background perhaps, and ease your way into this new product that I’m very excited about.

0:26:09.7 JD: Yeah. So what we’re working on is something that, I guess, I’ve been talking about in this podcast so far, what we’re interested in is, we are interested in ensuring that individuals from throughout their career will always maintain an idea of curiosity. We know that workplace is changing. We know that we’re gonna have more careers, rather than just one or two. We’re now gonna have, whatever it is, 7 to 15 different careers in our lifetime. We know we’re gonna be moving industry. We know we are going to be working for longer. And we also know deep down in our souls that the most important thing is that we are happy, we are happy in our career. Now, to my mind, being happy is directly linked with this idea that you enjoy your work. Yeah. As Dale Carnegie said, you’ll find that most people that are successful in their career enjoy their work. They have fun at work. Okay? So one of the things that, one of the key parts, of enjoying your work is that you are continually growing. You are continually moving forward.

0:27:19.9 JD: You feel like you are progressing. This is one of the things that is a big motivator for human beings, being stuck in a dead end, anything is not motivating. It doesn’t make people happy. So all of that culminates in this idea that investment in your own personal development is vitally important for your mental wellbeing and health. So how do we do that? How do we create something that will be with you for the duration of your career that allows you to explore many, many different careers depending on what you are curious about and how you want to grow, and then delivers it in a daily way that matches your proclivity, your way of learning. So it maximizes the reason why you would want to learn every day. So that’s really what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to move it away from a one-to-many approach, and we’re trying to move it away from a learning is a moment in time approach to be learning is something we do every single day, rather like watching the news or going on social media or whatever.

0:28:27.3 JD: So that’s really what we’re trying to do with this product, and we’re really trying to focus as well on this idea of neurodiversity, because obviously, since COVID, we have a wave of people that fundamentally learn in a different way. And so we believe that we need to look at the way we deliver those learning assets and change the way we deliver those learning assets in line with the audience. And I think that is absolutely critical if you think about all the different ways we can deliver learning assets, one-on-one conversations, videos, quizzes, challenges, case studies, the list goes on and on. If we understand how that person wants to learn. And also when? Does that person wanna learn for one minute a day, two minutes a day, three times a day? Or does that person wanna, we can better, match the learning to what is gonna inspire and delight them. And that’s really the whole basis of this project.

0:29:30.5 WB: How far away are you from the launch of your product? Does it have a name at this stage?

0:29:36.9 JD: Yes. It does. It’s called Coeus. Coeus, the brain is what it’s called, Coeus the brain. And we’re doing well, we can speak to it. We can talk to it. So the process of how Coeus works is basically we’ve developed this 4-dimension process, what we call it. The first one is discovery. So fundamentally, we don’t want learning to be done to you. We want to discover your passions, your interests, your what makes you curious. We want to discover where you are in your career, where you want to get into your career. So the first stage is discovery. So Coeus is proactive and will sit down and ask you questions about where you are and where you wanna go. And it will basically discover and it will match that to a skills framework, a national skills framework, or a international skills framework.

0:30:34.4 JD: So, very quickly Coeus will be able to build up a picture of where you are and the opportunities for your development that are in line with your curiosity, right? The next stage is discussion and diarize. So what we don’t want is just because Coeus has identified that you might be, let’s say, a level two or a level three or wherever you are, and you’ve got a requirement or you’ve got a interest in going on to be a senior manager, that doesn’t necessarily say you actually wanna do that. So what Coeus is then gonna do is say, Hey, look, based on what you’ve told me about, what you are interested in and your career to date, this is what we think would look like a really good development program for you. What do you think? And at that point, you would be able to look at the list of assets. You’d be looking, be able to look at the list of the times that you would have to spend. And you’ll be able to discuss this with Coeus to say, yeah, I’m, this is what I’m interested in. I’m not so interested on that. Can we swap that out?

0:31:31.4 JD: Can we move that around? Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So you’re gonna discuss, and then you’re gonna diarize that’s gonna put it into your diary. So it’s the ICS file that will go into your diary, and then you will have your development plan set. So after discuss and diarize, we then move into delivery. And at any one time you can be pursuing multiple learning paths. But essentially what will happen is the assets will be drip fed into your feed and you will be working with Coeus. Now, the way Coeus works is just that it’s not just things like videos or podcasts or whatever. After you’ve done Coeus we’ll start discussing it with you because going back to sort of Plato Republic and what Plato thought about learning, the most important thing is that we move further up Bloom’s taxonomy, right? What we need to do is get people discussing, evaluating all of those kind of good things ’cause that’s what makes the knowledge become relevant and interesting. So not only will Coeus be delivering the assets, he or she will also ensure that you are contextualizing those assets. So then when we come to the final stage, final of the four D’s is demonstration, you will be able to see your knowledge in action. So Coeus will be delivering things like case studies, examples, getting you to think about evaluating your knowledge. So again, the really kind of top of the triangle in Bloom’s taxonomy to be able to really see…

0:32:58.7 JD: How that hard work is paying off in your role and in your job. Yeah, so far the prompt engineering we’re using Claude 3 seems to be going very well. We’re using a lot of AI to build out the product, the software, the actual coding. And so far it seems to be going very well. We’re hoping to have a product available for the first people that come to the website and wanna try it out by the end of July. That’s our target date to have something out there. Please, if you are interested in having a conversation with Coeus, we would love to get your feedback.

0:33:33.7 JD: Please do come to the website iridescenttechnologies.ai and do sign up to be one of our testers and have a conversation with Coeus and see if they can produce something that you’re happy with and will make you curious for your career. Yeah, that’s the timeline that we’re going for.

0:33:53.8 WB: Excellent. I’m putting my hand up so you can see my hand.

0:33:57.3 JD: Great. Thank you. We need all the testers we can get.

0:34:00.4 WB: I will definitely be there. Based on that, there was a couple of things you said that I just wanted to circle back to. You mentioned about the mapping, I guess, about skills and the roles. Is that broadly prepared already in different countries or is that something…

0:34:16.5 JD: It is. And it’s in the public domain. It’s really fascinating how much work has gone on by governments and educators on this. There are huge skills frameworks, which covers everything from cold calls all the way through to engineering. And the reality is that most organizations just have not been able to use it. I don’t know any organization that uses the entire skills development framework in the UK. I’ve never come across them and the problem is that pass-porting within companies. Moving from one role to another is something that people want to do, but is not captured adequately.

0:35:00.6 JD: Now, then there may be some learning platforms and there maybe some advanced organizations that have it for a subset. They might have it for management and leadership, or they might have it, but they don’t have it for the whole gamut. If you are sitting in a company like Centrica or British Gap, you can’t really see, okay right I’m moving all the way through from a cold call person to an engineer in the field. You can’t see how you’re going to do with groups. But if you think about it organizational skills, people management skills, influence skills, you’re going to have a lot of those that are the same working in a call center as you are in the engineering field.

0:35:35.4 JD: And so what we want to do is we want to capture those skills and say, “Hey, look, you’ve got those skills and they can be used in this future endeavor and EurAc also has a very broad skills network. Now, some countries use it more than others. So Germany, for example, is absolutely fantastic with some of the stuff that it does on apprenticeships and stuff like that. And all of that is available in the public domain. And then of course you’ve got the awarding bodies. From skills, the national skills framework, then you have the awarding bodies for each country, which basically details all the different qualifications. And then from that you have the content providers.

0:36:17.1 JD: Yeah. There’s a whole gamut. And this again is when AI can come along and do the heavy lifting. If you’re one human trying to get all of the entire national skills framework in your head and every single qualification you could possibly do that was recognized by the UK government, for example, you just couldn’t do it. Well, you can, utilizing AI. AI can join the dots and basically say, “Right, if you want to go here to there, this is the content that is available and this is what we’re recommending that you do.” And not only that, this is how from utilizing that content most likely we’re going to want you to demonstrate your skills in this way. It can basically create those scenarios where you can actually apply and evaluate the skills that you’ve learned.

0:37:13.3 WB: And I guess that will be the next challenge you may have already overcome it, but the credentialing, the qualification side, as people go through this new technology has already been discussion with these authorities about recognizing the learning that’s going on through this platform or that will go on through this platform to be able to create that qualification.

0:37:39.3 JD: Yeah. That is definitely. If you look at how qualifications are delivered, they’re delivered in a number of different ways, but basically you’ve got guided learning hours and then you’ve got student study hours essentially. In order to accredit a qualification, you need to be able to capture the non-guided study hours. There is quite a lot of work to be done in and around looking at the work that a student has done and being able to give them a credit for them now [0:38:10.8] ____ has come up with some solutions with regards to that.

0:38:13.6 JD: But I think in terms of our project, that will certainly be stage two or stage three. What we can say so far is that they have completed the guided learning hours. What we can’t say is whether they’ve done the individual sort of… But we will be able to do to a certain extent about when we get to the demonstrate stage, but certainly that’s not on our short-term roadmap. That is on a… We know that that’s coming, but it’s not… We haven’t got a date for when that’s going to be.

0:38:42.6 WB: I guess that leads to somehow to a question that I had in my mind about who will be able to use your platform. Let’s say it’s me and my company comes along with my own content. I am able to work with you and your platform to then use your AI to take my current content and convert it? Or does it have to start from scratch?

0:39:05.5 JD: No. If you think about the problem that we’re trying to solve, so our expertise is in the area of learning and pedagogy. We are not content providers. We’re not, we don’t come up with new innovative ways to coach new innovative ways to know. That’s not our bag. What we focus on is getting that learning pedagogy to be utilized with any content. If a company comes to us like yourself and you have an expertise in a certain area, all we do is we plug in our prompt engineering to our Claude 3 to basically that will go through and look at all of your content. And then from there, we’ll take the learner through the four stages of discovery, discussion, delivery, and demonstration.

0:39:56.5 JD: Our niche is that. Is how to do that, not the content. So we’re hoping that we’re gonna be able to do all sorts of subjects. Fishing, how to be a great dog trainer. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely anything. That’s what we want. We want to have people curious about cake making, about needlework, about anything. But obviously even that’s an expertise that we don’t have.

0:40:22.8 WB: Yeah, good. We talk about the application of itself and how it might look. Let’s say we come along with a one-day, traditional one-day training or six hours worth of content. How will it then dissect it? Is there a framework that it’s going to follow or is it dependent on the content? How does it function?

0:40:43.4 JD: So what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to make a learning conversation in the main. Okay, so it really depends… So, first of all, we want to understand where you are on the kind of neurodiversity spectrum. So that’s one of the key things. When you go in and you set up your account, you’re basically Coeus is trying to understand what kind of learner you are, how you want to learn, where you want to learn text, audio, speech, all of that kind of thing. What do you prefer in order to be the greatest version of yourself? So that’s the first thing. So it’s very, very much learner-driven. So however you want the content to be delivered, it will.

0:41:22.5 JD: However, we know that learning is better if it is kind of done every day, X amount of times a day. So, little and often rather than one big chunk. So, we want the learning to basically fit in with your lifestyle and what you’re doing so that you are constantly thinking about the content. But it really is up to the learner. If the learner discusses with Coeus and says, I really just wanna learn on a Friday afternoon every month, that’s fine. That’s the way the content will be delivered. But still, it will be peppered with this idea that we fundamentally believe that it must be conversational. So there’s no point you watching a video and then not having a discussion to make sure it’s embedded.

0:42:11.8 JD: What the experience will be is very interactive. So you might be watching something that’s just a minute, but after that, you’ll get quantitative and qualitative questions that you need to interact with in order to either get the credits or kind of move through that particular thing.

0:42:31.0 WB: Juliette, I’m excited. Do you have marketing material already produced or we just go to your website?

0:42:37.8 JD: Yeah, if you go to the website there’s loads of stuff on there and as I say there’s loads of stuff on LinkedIn and I’m always really happy to talk to anyone. So, I’m all over LinkedIn all the time so if you do wanna have a virtual coffee, really happy to discuss, not necessarily the commercials of this product but anybody who’s interested in learning pedagogy anyone who’s got interests in neurodiversity and how we can improve learning pedagogy. I’m really delighted to spend some time just discussing views. Always open for learning, I think is the term.

0:43:12.8 WB: What is the website URL?

0:43:15.1 JD: So it’s iridescenttechnology.ai.

0:43:19.1 WB: All right. I look forward to really watching this space. Thanks for sharing, wish the endeavors all the best and I hope it gets released soon.

0:43:28.5 JD: Thank you very much, Wayne, thanks for the invite it’s great to be here.

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0:43:33.6 S2: Thank you for joining us on the ET project. A show for executive talent development. Until next time, check out our site for free videos, ebooks, webinars and blogs at coaching4companies.com.

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