0:00:00.0 Wayne Brown: Hello, I’m your host Wayne Brown and welcome to the ET Project. We’re delighted to be delivering this podcast for executive talent all over the world whom we’re affectionately referring to as Team ET. Today we’re visiting Cologne in Germany for the first time on our show and speaking with communications expert and coach, Dr. Michael Gerharz. Dr. Gerharz helps leaders across the globe find the right words and make a bigger impact. He’s the author of The Path to Strategic Impact and The Aha Effect. His blog on The Art of Communicating has more than 1000 published posts and he’s the host of The Irresistible Communication podcast. Michael’s journey began when he worked on his PhD during the mobile phone revolution, a time filled with groundbreaking ideas. Some of them changed the world rapidly and profoundly, and at the same time, many brilliant ideas had to die. No one had cared for finding better words to communicate them. The brilliant minds behind these ideas believed good ideas would win on their own, but they didn’t and couldn’t because for an idea to change the world, people need to pay attention, understand it and fall in love with it. Michael refused to let his own ideas down, so he went looking for better ways to communicate. People loved the new approach and told him how refreshing the clarity of his communication was.
0:01:27.1 WB: Shortly after, he started a blog to share what he’d learned. It resonated so strongly that people reached out to learn more about his approach to communication. Michael’s coaching and consulting business was born. Today, he helps leaders across the globe communicate with irresistible clarity so their ideas can make the impact they deserve. His goal is that you find words you truly believe in about the things you deeply care about. So team, in this episode today, Michael will help us explore the principles of clarity, simplicity and impact in strategic communication. We’ll uncover the challenges leaders face, the tools they use and the profound difference that clear communication can make. We hope you enjoy.
0:02:15.5 WB: Welcome to the ET Project, a podcast for those executive talents determined to release their true potential and create an impact. Join our veteran coach and mentor, Wayne Brown, as we unpack an exciting future together.
0:02:33.0 WB: Welcome, Team ET, to today’s episode where we’re going to be diving deep into the essence of effective strategy communication. Now, I’m sure you’re probably not going to be surprised to learn that your ability as leaders to deliver clear, impactful communication is really a cornerstone of your success. Certainly was for my career. And to this end, understanding how to convey strategic ideas effectively really transforms your team and has the ability to transform the organization. And today we’re going to explore some principles for clarity, simplicity, even impact in strategy communication. We’ll uncover, I’m sure, a number of challenges that you all face as well as probably some tools. And I think we’ll get to the point of profound difference about what impact clear communication can make. So whether you’re a seasoned executive or an aspiring leader, you’re probably going to get a lot of valuable insights from our conversation on strategic communication skills.
0:03:47.5 WB: I’m really happy to say that joining us on the journey is our guest and very gifted communicator. So you can probably sense that I’m trying to be a little bit articulate about what I say because of our guest. But Dr. Michael Gerharz is joining us. He’s going to guide us through this conversation. And one important factor to note here is that today, as this episode releases, is October 1 of 2024. And coincidentally, or not, today is the day that Michael launches his book. The book’s called The Path to Strategic Impact. So with that, Michael, welcome to the ET Project.
0:04:33.6 Dr. Michael Gerharz: Welcome. Hello, Wayne. Great to be here.
0:04:36.5 WB: Thank you. We’re going to spend quite a lot of time today leveraging the lessons from your book and delving into our communications topic. So perhaps right at the very beginning, let’s get clear about where listeners are going to be able to go and secure your book so that they can sort of understand what we’ve been talking about in this episode.
0:05:00.1 DG: Yeah, I think the times are such that the easiest place should be Amazon. So it’s on your local Amazon website, but you can also just head over to my website. There’s a dedicated section to the book and you can find all the info there, michaelgerharz.com/the-path and everything’s there.
0:05:22.1 WB: Perfect. Well, before we jump into the conversation, our listeners love to get a little bit of a deeper understanding about our guests. So if you don’t mind sharing some of your, I don’t know, personal, professional journey that’s led you to where we are today, please.
0:05:38.4 DG: Yeah. So my journey started in a very unusual place, at least for someone who’s concerned with or whose day is spent thinking about effective communication. I’m a computer scientist originally, so my PhD is in mobile communications. And well, that’s not perhaps the first place you might expect a communications coach to come from. But actually, that experience is what brought me here because I too was so frustrated with all the great ideas that I had seen being thrown into a trash bin because no one cared for finding better words to communicate them. So brilliant ideas were forgotten because no one paid attention to them because people thought that the idea would probably win on its own, which it couldn’t because for an idea to succeed, people need to pay attention.
0:06:35.8 DG: They need to be able to understand it, to act on it. And only when that happens, they can embrace it. And I was always trying to do that with my own ideas or the ideas that originated in my work group. And I started looking for better ways and started writing about that in my blog. And well, that ended up me being here, having written a book about that topic. And yeah, I hope that it can help some more ideas see the light of day.
0:07:05.6 WB: Was there a tipping point on that, during that period that really pushed you over the edge and said: I’ve really got to do something about this?
0:07:14.1 DG: I don’t think that there was one particular point in time. I think there were a couple of milestones that helped me arrive there. One of them was certainly my physics teacher back in high school or the German equivalent of high school, who made us an offer at the beginning of the course, which spanned like three years. And he offered us to hand him in a written outline of everything that we covered in our own words. And he would then meticulously proofread that not only for factual correctness, but also stylistic and understandability. And I think that this was really instrumental. I mean, the surprising thing here is that only three of us took that offer. I was one of them and I was actually the only one who took it for every single topic that we covered. But that guidance that I enjoyed in my early days had me value the significance of the words that you use. And if I now look back at what I wrote there, you can clearly see how that evolved.
0:08:24.9 DG: First of all, it was very all over the place, very generalistic. And then it got more precise over the years. And I think that has served me well ever since. That appreciation for that a little more effort into the words that you choose to convey your ideas can have such a profound effect on your ideas and the people that you communicate with.
0:08:51.0 WB: Yeah, I’m impressed that you had a professor who was that dedicated to the course that they would take that extra step. I mean, that’s a big promise. What’s the name of the business, by the way?
0:09:05.9 DG: I go by my name. So Dr. Michael Gerharz, The Art of Communicating. Just Google for my name and you’ll immediately land there.
0:09:14.8 WB: And can you tell us a little bit more about the business itself, the core philosophy, perhaps, when it comes to the communication coaching?
0:09:25.3 DG: Yeah, well, basically my mission is to help people, leaders, businesses to find the right words because, well, kind of my vision is that I imagine a world where those of us who have an important story to tell and a story that has the potential to change the world, find the words to do so, right? To make that happen. And so often I see that there’s a lack of appreciation for that and that sometimes people are not really sure where to start, right? I mean, something that very often happens is that you’re very passionate about the things that you do, that you deeply believe in, that this could change the world, that this is a brilliant idea, and that our product might be way superior to the competition.
0:10:12.6 DG: But still, you see the competition running circles around you. And you might even be frustrated because they have these natural born salespeople who have no issue in promising their customers the blue from the skies. Something that as a passionate person, as a passionate believer, you would never want to do. And so what I often see is that those people almost feel like giving up because, well, they see that they have an unfair disadvantage. But I think that’s exactly the other way around, that actually you might have an unfair advantage because you care so deeply. So if you manage to find words that resonate deeply with your audience, then you will have an unfair advantage because your product is actually superior. And I think that you are uniquely positioned to do so precisely because you care so much. That means that you listen closely to your audience. You understand their problems probably better than your competition.
0:11:16.7 DG: And so, just making use of that and then trying to capture not what you’re passionate about, but what matters, deeply matters to your audience so that they can actually resonate with why what you do matters to them, improves their life, has a profound impact on their daily business or lives. That can really change the game. And helping people do that and find those words that make your customers see why your work has such a profound impact on their lives. That’s kind of what I had tried to do.
0:11:53.0 WB: And that’s an interesting point because one of the things I was thinking when I was preparing for our conversation is communication as a word is so broad, so generalized, and there’s so many aspects to it. Whether we’re talking written communication, whether it’s through our listening skills, our nonverbal, whether it’s our vocals, as well as the verbal, the words we use every day, all of this falls under that heading of communication. So if I listen to what you just said and I look at the things you’re doing, I’m guessing the majority of what you do is based around the verbal communication?
0:12:40.9 DG: It is because I think that that’s actually the starting point of almost every other aspect of communication. You’re totally right that communication is such a fascinating area with so many nuances and so many different areas to pay attention to. But I tend to think that unless you find words that you truly believe in about the things that you deeply care about, all of those other things are merely trying to fix other deficiencies. Of course, you can try to work on your body language to appear confident, but I tend to think that it’s much better to work on your confidence, to work on words that you’re truly confident about, because when you do that, your body will tend to want to do the right thing. And then working on your body language means amplifying that rather than finding workarounds around the things that your body actually wants to do. And that’s why I think that this is such a valuable perspective that you start by finding words that you truly believe in and then attach the other facets of communication to that because they will become so much more powerful.
0:14:06.8 WB: Over the years, I’m guessing you’ve worked with a number of clients or a number of people. Is there a typical client that you see? I know I’m generalizing and stereotyping, but do you come across a typical type of communication challenge with your clients?
0:14:25.1 DG: I think I do, but it’s not in terms of industry or business size. It’s much more in terms of how much people care. The people I work with are typically people who aren’t in it merely for the money or for their next career move or for winning the next award. They’re in it because they believe that they are uniquely positioned to make an impact, to make a difference because they see something better, they try to make something better, and now they try to find the words so that others can see that too. These are typically people who care for winning the right way, to finding words that are truthful to what I’m actually working on. They are not just cool-sounding slogans, fancy mission statements, but are actually truthful to the work that we do and that are tangible much more than fancy, that are relatable much more than sensational.
0:15:34.5 WB: The book dives into that, I guess that’s a nice segue to the book. It’s the main theme for today. Let’s have a look at the book, if you don’t mind. It’s called The Path to Strategic Impact. It releases or launches today. What was the inspiration behind writing the book?
0:15:53.8 DG: Well, it was actually the work with my clients. That typical situation that I’m sure that you’ve experienced, and many of our listeners have experienced themselves, where you’ve come up with that brilliant new idea or strategy. Perhaps you’ve been through a longer project or a strategy retreat, and you come home, back to work, totally enthusiastic about it. You feel pumped about it. Everyone thinks, well, this is really going to be the next step for our business. Only to observe that three weeks in, everything’s back to normal. The day-to-day creeps in, the team hasn’t really bought in, the competition has that news out, which seems relevant, and so we feel we have to investigate that. All the great ideas, all that passionate work and heartfelt work that we put in there, the enthusiasm has faded.
0:16:55.3 DG: It almost feels like a distant dream. I thought that was a pity because the strategy that we work on is one of the most important pieces, the heartbeat of your business. If you manage to get your team behind, and if you believe that this is really and truly a smart strategy, and you can get your team behind so that everyone, regardless of their level, knows how to make the choices that need to be made in order to make that significant leap, then you’re going to be so much better positioned compared to all the competition that’s around you.
0:17:36.6 WB: As you know, I spent time with a German company and time in Germany myself. The scenario you just described, unfortunately, was very accurate for that company. Every year, we would go away for our high-level senior executive retreat. We would spend three intense days talking about strategy, reviewing the past year, looking to the future. We would come back, and it just fizzled into the abyss for some reason. We got caught up in doing the doing again for all the reasons you mentioned. It’s such a shame. As you said, when you’re there, you’re so engaged, you’re so pumped, and we’re unable to come back and have that cascade through the organization, which is a real disappointment.
0:18:37.0 WB: I don’t want to give the entire plot away of this book because we want people to go out and actually buy the book, but in the title, you have the word PATH. PATH is a four-letter acronym, and it’s really about four communication principles. I wonder if you’d mind just introducing what the acronym is about and setting up the book a little bit, if you don’t mind, please.
0:19:00.3 DG: Yeah. Conveniently, that word has that nice double meaning. It’s the PATH that you want to get your company on. The PATH you want to make significant leaps. But it’s also, conveniently, that acronym that helps you make much more effective communication because I think that communication is really one of the core issues, and one of the beauties of that is that when you get it right, you have very strong hints whether the underlying strategy actually is any good, right?
0:19:37.0 DG: So what are those four principles? It’s based on four fundamental principles that I see in communication. The first is plain and simple. P is plain and simple. Can you manage to find words that everyone on your team really truly understands and knows what it means for their everyday lives? So getting rid of those fancy-sounding consultant speak jargon and breaking it down into terms that actually make sense for your team. So that’s P, plain and simple.
0:20:10.0 DG: A is actionable. Can you frame that in a way that it immediately informs how you make choices, what it means for the everyday choices each and every team member needs to make when the new project launches, when the customer rings up on the support line, when you’re presenting the keynote, when you’re in a negotiation? So all of these, when you manage to align all of these choices, then you’re going to make significant leaps, right? And so, can you manage to make it actionable? A, actionable.
0:20:45.6 DG: T is for transformative. So actionable is good, but can you make it so that you actually encourage the bold moves, not just the right moves, but the bold leaps. And so that your team wants to make those with conviction.
0:21:01.6 DG: And H is heartfelt. Can you find words that capture why you do what you do, why this is a truly meaningful path you’re on, why it not only makes sense from a business perspective, but it makes sense for you and the team personally? It has some deeper meaning that all of you believe in as a shared mission. So these are the four principles: Plain and simple, actionable, transformative, and heartfelt.
0:21:35.5 WB: The way the book is written, you’ve got it divided into two parts, and you go into detail on that acronym in part one. And in part two, you do the how to effectively, how to apply what you’ve learned in part one.
0:21:52.1 WB: If I look at each one, and I’m not going to go into a lot of detail, throughout the book, you’ve given case studies about companies that have demonstrated or failed to demonstrate, in some cases, but demonstrated each one of these. And in the plain and simple for the P, you introduce a thing that you call “core credo.” And I like that very much. It tends to be the foundation for me that really you build everything else onto. What do you mean by that core credo?
0:22:29.6 DG: So core credo is that singular statement that captures the spirit of your strategy. It’s not the whole of your strategy. It’s not a complete summary of everything that the strategy entails, but it’s kind of the spirit that’s behind the choices that you made for the strategy. So what you try with the core credo is to capture what your strategy is actually all about in a way that your team actually can understand what it means for their everyday lives.
0:23:08.2 DG: One brilliant example for this is Southwest Airlines, right? Who, in their early days, had a, they didn’t call it like that, but I think it’s a brilliant example of a core credo. Part of their strategy has always been to increase the efficiency of their operation, right? To be the most efficient airline, in essence. And so, the typical way to frame that in a strategy would be something like “to spearhead the efficiency in our operation,” something that sounds spectacular, sensational, and super ambitious, but has close to no meaning for an employee working on the airplane or in the operations.
0:24:11.7 DG: And so they were looking for, or they actually managed to find a way to say the same thing in a way that’s so much more profound and that informs the actions in a much better way. So what they figured was that the most effective way of increasing their efficiency was to minimize the time that an airplane spends on the ground. So they wanted to get their planes moving as fast as possible. So minimize the turnaround time at gates. One way of saying that could be like, we aim for like 60% airtime, which might be accurate, but again, it doesn’t really make sense, right? So they were, again, digging deeper and they found a much more profound phrasing of the same strategy. So just two words: “wheels up.” So wheels up is their strategy. And that is something that you can see, right?
0:25:11.1 DG: So 60% airtime, you cannot see; like spearheading efficiency, you cannot see, but wheels up, you can see. And it’s much more than that. So it means you have now kind of a measuring stick for your decisions. So when you’re faced with a decision to choose X or Y, you can always ask yourself, “Does that lead to wheels up? Does that get the wheels moving up quicker or not?” And that’s a very straightforward guideline. And even more than that, it’s easy to imagine that that’s being shouted through the floors in a boardroom meeting, used as an argument to end a struggle about whether to choose X or Y. And so it transforms into a credo, a core credo that has the potential of defining at least parts of the company’s culture.
0:26:09.5 WB: In that case, if you’re a baggage handler, whether you’re somebody who’s doing the maintenance on the plane, or whether you’re somebody behind the counter, everyone can relate to that single strategy of getting that plane back up in the air rather than having to actually pull the tail back.
0:26:28.7 DG: Yeah, exactly. And it’s the words that make all the difference here, right? You could have framed the exact same strategy in a million different ways, but paying attention to the effect that your words have on your team and how they hear that and understand that, making that as easy as possible for them, that’s what made the difference here.
0:26:48.5 WB: Okay. And so then the second word is actionable. And if I take this same example of wheels up, that’s somehow actionable as well, I guess.
0:26:58.9 DG: Yeah, it is.
0:27:02.4 WB: The third letter is T, transformative. And you talk about taking bold steps, not staying with the status quo, so to speak. Any example on how organizations can build transformative words into their strategy? Like what would that look like?
0:27:22.5 DG: I was deeply impressed when I first read about the turnaround that Paul O’Neill managed to realize for Alcoa, the Aluminum Company of America, which kind of struggled in the 80s. When Paul O’Neill was appointed the CEO, what he announced as his strategy surprised basically the whole industry and the press because his strategy wasn’t about cutting costs or like a sales initiative or an innovation initiative or the usual suspects that you would hear in such press conferences. No, his strategy was very razor-sharp focused on one specific goal, and he called it “zero incidents.” And it referred to incidents in Alcoa’s factories. I mean, aluminum production is, you can imagine, kind of a dangerous industry. It’s hot temperatures, and there’s a lot of potential for serious injuries. And actually, in their plans, they wouldn’t go a week without any injury usually. And now he took that as his strategy.
0:28:47.0 DG: And in a very short time, that strategy, which surprised the whole industry, turned around the whole company and it became one of the textbook examples for strategic success because he understood this principle had a profound ripple effect on many other areas of the business. Because he understood if he managed to get the team paying attention to all the tiny details that could potentially cause an incident, that would also lead them to pay attention to all the other tiny things that could improve quality, cost-effectiveness, and all the other things. So what he created was a culture of excellence. And again, I think the framing and the use of the words made all the difference here.
0:29:40.9 DG: Another way of saying the same strategy would have been, “We want to improve worker safety” or “Our top priority for the next five years is worker safety.” And that’s a stark contrast to the other way of saying the same thing with “zero incidents” because “we prioritize worker safety” is easily satisfied by the smallest and tiniest of efforts. Yeah, we put an extra alarm bell there, or an extra light there, or we print some safety posters on the wall, which no one really pays attention to. But yeah, we prioritize safety here. But all of these gains are possible when you frame it like “zero incidents.” Zero incidents requires you to make transformative leaps. It takes the ambition to the extreme. It can only be satisfied if we not only play by the rules but try to get creative and look for transformative ways of really getting down to zero incidents. And it’s actually what they managed. I mean, not ever since, but for a very long time, they’ve managed to run on zero incidents. And it’s actually something that’s rippled through the industry. I’ve been to many businesses where you see in the lobby that counter of days without incidents. And I think that originated there.
0:31:07.9 WB: And as you’re suggesting, it ripples through the organization and becomes cultural in implication. So people start to behave in that certain way with that expectation, in this case, zero incidents.
0:31:21.3 WB: The last letter, H, is heartfelt. You have a good example in the book as well. I’m going to talk to you after the show about this particular example because there’s another reason. But you’re talking about the healthcare industry in the Netherlands, I believe, with this particular one. Could you elaborate a little bit on what heartfelt looks like in a strategy and how a leader would go about implementing it?
0:31:48.4 DG: Let’s suppose that you’ve managed to check the other three letters, that you’ve got a plain and simple, actionable, and transformative strategy. So what happens when times get rough? When the market winds blow against you, when the economy takes a hit, when COVID happens, things like that. So what happens then? You’re still going to want to make the right choices and the tough choices, but that’s going to be hard when people don’t really, really embrace the reason that you’re on the path in the first place when they don’t really believe in those rules and the choices they need to make. But that’s completely different when you find a way to capture that spirit. So, why actually do we show up here each morning? Why have we joined that company? Why do we believe in that shared mission?
0:32:47.6 DG: And that Dutch organization that you mentioned, Buurtzorg, has a very beautiful example of that principle. They actually turned the way that healthcare organizations work upside down. The healthcare industry is usually a very strictly organized industry, right? Where pretty much every tiny step of a procedure is pre-planned, and the nurses often tend to be just, well, kind of the executors of something that a project manager or upper management has decided elsewhere. There’s not much trust in the capability of nurses, right?
0:33:35.3 DG: And that organization thought, well, wait a second, shouldn’t the people working with the actual patients, all of them very likely people who chose that job because they care for them, they really care for helping people, shouldn’t those people be positioned, be expertly positioned to know what’s right and what’s best in the patient’s best interest? And that’s what they built an organization on. So their strategy is to trust their nurses, to trust the actual people that do the work with the patients, with knowing what’s best for the patient. Something that would, well, freak every manager out. Every chief financial officer is probably now running away screaming from this podcast.
0:34:32.0 DG: But surprisingly, at least for those people, that worked out pretty well, right? So they really revolutionized the way this works, and they actually operate on much better cost efficiency than any other organization that’s come before. So it actually works to trust the people doing the work they committed to showing up for, to speak to the reason why they show up, why they came to your organization. And by finding words that capture that spirit, that allow your team to feel welcome, to feel that they belong here, to feel that their work has the potential to make a difference, that is something that tipped the game for that healthcare organization.
0:35:26.8 WB: And the ripple effect of that would be so deep within the organization. I can imagine they’re the employer of choice, their turnover rates would be extremely low, and they would have all the benefits that go with that. Probably a whole raft of negative elements of having employees in the first place are wiped out through this degree of trust and having this culture that’s inherent to the strategy.
0:35:57.4 WB: So, yeah, we’ll talk more about that later, but thank you for sharing that. Well, that sort of brings us to an overview of part one. As I said, part two is about the how-to. So it’s about applying this acronym PATH within your organization. The approach to how you would apply it. Is there any teaser you would like to give about part two? Is there anything you would like to talk about with part two?
0:36:22.7 DG: I think that one of the beauties of that PATH approach is that it carries all the answers in itself. The way to make it happen is by applying those principles, not only to the strategy itself but to the whole endeavor of making the strategy work and implementing it. These four principles are not only great principles for communicating your strategy but actually great principles for communication, period. This is what great communication looks like. Is it plain and simple? Do the people… Is it actionable? Do the people know what it means for their actions? Is it transformative? Does it inspire bold moves? And is it heartfelt? Does it speak to the emotions and not only to the rational mind? And so if you do that, you’ll find that the answers have actually always been inside of you. You only probably need to adjust the lens that you look through a tiny bit, and you’ll somehow look at your own business and the way that it can make an impact in a very different way.
0:37:33.4 WB: If we were to single out one piece of advice, is there something that you would give to our listeners who are probably struggling with what they could do to make a difference tomorrow? How could they make an impact on the strategy, the communication, anything within that scope?
0:37:52.9 DG: I would encourage you to ask, to go through your offices or write a bunch of emails if you’re a remote company, and ask as many of your team as possible one single question: “What is the essence of our strategy?” And you’ll be surprised by the number of different perspectives that you’ll get. And then, well, take that as the starting point. Try to, first of all, face the truth and then not be mad at yourself that it’s not one clear answer from everyone. But pursue that as a journey, right? It’s not that this usually is a one-time revelation that you just have as a stroke of insight. This is a journey. And the moment that you start paying attention to that, to how do people actually understand what I want them to see and then kind of refine it each and every time that we communicate and keep on asking that question: “How did you understand what I just said? Is that clear to you?” Well, it will greatly improve your strategy.
0:39:13.8 DG: And probably there would be one tweak to that exercise. I would encourage you, before asking all the team, to write your answer down yourself and probably stow it away in your drawer and then compare it afterwards. So this is what we thought we were up to. This is what the team thinks we’re actually on to.
0:39:36.4 WB: I’m working through the exercise that Michael has given me to do exactly that. I formed this company and I believe I’m extremely clear with my strategic approach and communicating it. I couldn’t answer the question in the way that you suggested I need to be able to. I went back and redid the process and I’m testing it at the moment with some of the team. I love the suggestion. I think it’s really a great piece of advice that we can all do. Even if it is good, we can always tweak and we can always improve.
0:40:17.7 WB: One of the things that we didn’t mention or I haven’t mentioned is that the book also comes with a number of free resources that add weight to your understanding as well as the usability of the application. So there’s a lot of bonus material there that you get. Where can the listeners go? What was the website called again?
0:40:37.5 DG: It’s michaelgerharz.com. G-E-R-H-A-R-Z, one word, michaelgerharz.com.
0:40:44.6 WB: Other social media accounts?
0:40:47.5 DG: Yeah, you’ll find me on all the usual social media. The main platform is LinkedIn. I would love for you to connect with me. I’m happy to observe your journeys, probably chime in with one or two thoughts on your posts. Yeah, feel free to connect and also to follow on Instagram or other media.
0:41:07.6 WB: Well, Michael, wish you all the best with the book launch. Hopefully, it reaches bestseller status very soon. Thanks for being a wonderful guest on the ET Project. Really enjoyed the conversation and look forward to watching the journey yourself.
0:41:21.2 DG: Thanks a lot. It’s been a pleasure.
0:41:23.6 WB: Thank you for joining us on the ET Project. A show for executive talent development. Until next time, check out our site for free videos, eBooks, webinars and blogs at coaching4companies.com.
